AHC: Roman Catholic Church organized along national lines

Make it so the Roman Catholic Church is associated with nationalities, similar to the Orthodox Church. For instance, an Italian Catholic Church, Polish Catholic Church, Spanish Catholic Church, etc. Church membership becomes even more related to national identity than IOTL. However, the Vatican must continue to exist, and continue to at least nominally appoint each national church's patriarch and issue papal encyclicals, pronouncements, etc.

How would such an arrangement affect history, especially if and when Europeans begin settling and colonizing other continents? Would Spanish and French colonialists be willing to convert natives into their "national" churches? Or would they petition the Pope to form new churches to better control the formerly-heathen natives?
 
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The easiest way to do this would be to take out Rome. If, before the Reformation, Rome falls to a non-Christian force like Constantinople did, I could definitely see this developing, with different kings setting up their own popes.

There might also be a way to do this with a worse Western Schism.
 
Prevent Peppinid/Carolingian rise.

It's basically the main reason why popes went from Patriarchs whom moral and religious authority was acknowledged by western churches to a massive unified denomination.
See, as the Frankish takeover of continental Christian western Europe went on, Peppininds and Carolingians needed an unified church to have a legitimacy base (as support and restorers of Church) with unified liturgy, rites and organisation.

Before that, churches were pretty well aligned along "national" (depsite the anachronism of the word) lines, with the king being theorically the protector/leader of them. Councils were made locally, and while serving as referential elsewhere, had a regional effectiveness at first.

Now, the curious thing is that these churches didn't had a feeling of "national" identity. Think more about being local representatives, having a certain autonomy in local matters as long it didn't get against the general situation of Latin Christianity.
Really, more along kingdom lines than "national" ones OTL.

Having the Ducatus Romanus being taken over by Lombards early or at least before Peppinid rise would do the trick as well, making the pope while still important, more italian focused.

Latin Christianism would turn to a decentralized system, eventually, unlike what existed in ERE then (where the church was heavily centralized into imperial hands) but more along what you search.

For the questions about "new territories", with respect made to butterflies, I would think it would went the same way : Churches would be organized along administrative and political lines and you could have *French, *Mercian, *Etc. churches in America dividied alonst them.
 
HRE wins investiture controversy, giving emperor power to appoint bishops. Having that pwoer he makes sure he appoints those who will be pliant and woun't oppose him. Chirch thus become more dependant on emperor rather than Pope in such matters though not in doctrinal matters.

Seeing what HRE managed to achieve you see similar tendencies and wishes by rulers who think they can pull it off.
 
Make it so the Roman Catholic Church is associated with nationalities, similar to the Orthodox Church. For instance, an Italian Catholic Church, Polish Catholic Church, Spanish Catholic Church, etc. Church membership becomes even more related to national identity than IOTL. However, the Vatican must continue to exist, and continue to at least nominally appoint each national church's patriarch and issue papal encyclicals, pronouncements, etc.

How would such an arrangement affect history, especially if and when Europeans begin settling and colonizing other continents? Would Spanish and French colonialists be willing to convert natives into their "national" churches? Or would they petition the Pope to form new churches to better control the formerly-heathen natives?


Wow this is very similar to what I'm wanting to do in my TL, Apollinis et Dianae. In my opinion this cold be done as late as the enlightenment. During the enlightenment many nations began weakening the power of the Church in their borders. For instance, the Marquis de Pombal in Portugal more or less made his Church completely autonomous, or Joseph II who severely weakened the Church's power in Austria. Or Gallicanism in France or the Congress of Ems in Germany. Before the French revolution many nations were taking steps to gain further autonomy and control over their National churches, and it probably would have continued if not for the Revolution. And they wouldn't have Patriarchs but Primates. Like how the Archbishop of Toledo was Primate of all Spain or the Archbishop of Canterbury was Primate of England. And with the power of the Papacy weakened other National Protestant churches, like the Anglican Church, the Lutheran Church in Sweden or the various Protestant states of the HRE might be encouraged to return to the fold, provided that their autonomy is respected.
 
We were starting to see it move along those lines pre-Reformation as rulers began to take up many of the roles of the church. Spain, while loyal to the church had a great deal of independence... If we could have a survival of the regional rites (Sarum, the Spanish one) alongside the growing belief that every king was emperor of his own lands and you can see a more national church...

However, in the Council of Constance the clergy were divided into nations so during the medieval period they still played a part. It is post-Reformation, and especially post-French Revolution that uniformity became the true mark of Roman Catholicism... Perhaps we have a system like the Anglican Ordinate or the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which have different rites and characters, but are still in full Communion with Rome.
 
Make it so the Roman Catholic Church is associated with nationalities, similar to the Orthodox Church. For instance, an Italian Catholic Church, Polish Catholic Church, Spanish Catholic Church, etc. Church membership becomes even more related to national identity than IOTL. However, the Vatican must continue to exist, and continue to at least nominally appoint each national church's patriarch
Continue? Since when?
When did Vatican manage to usurp the right to "nominally appoint" national primates?
How would such an arrangement affect history, especially if and when Europeans begin settling and colonizing other continents? Would Spanish and French colonialists be willing to convert natives into their "national" churches? Or would they petition the Pope to form new churches to better control the formerly-heathen natives?
There were primates.

How about, Primate of Spain (Archbishop of Toledo), Primate of Portugal (either archbishop of Braga or Patriarch of Lisboa), Primate of France (either archbishop of Rheims or archbishop of Lyons), Primate of Poland (Archbishop of Gniezno) and other national primates continue to be nominally "elected" by their respective cathedral chapters, like that of Toledo, ant not even nominally appointed by Pope (and actually appointed, not by Pope but by the local king)?
And how about making the colonial bishops and archbishops formally subject to their national Primate, with no interference by the Pope to bypass the primate?
 
A Catholic Church organized along national lines is just impossible. Each Church would fell under the rule of the King/President/Dictator who would use this spiritual institution for political purposes.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".
 
A Catholic Church organized along national lines is just impossible. Each Church would fell under the rule of the King/President/Dictator who would use this spiritual institution for political purposes.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

Um no its really not. Many states have national Churches that are semi-independent. As stated in this thread several Catholic Churches were virtually autonomous from Rome but were still functionally Roman Catholic. The French Gallican Church would have been autonomous if fully implemented, the German Church was moving towards that with the congress of Ems, both Spain and Portugal had heavily reduced the Vatican's power in their respective countries, and there was even an attempt in Tuscany reduce Papal control. So it wouldn't be to difficult to do.
 
Make it so the Roman Catholic Church is associated with nationalities, similar to the Orthodox Church. For instance, an Italian Catholic Church, Polish Catholic Church, Spanish Catholic Church, etc. Church membership becomes even more related to national identity than IOTL. However, the Vatican must continue to exist, and continue to at least nominally appoint each national church's patriarch and issue papal encyclicals, pronouncements, etc.

How would such an arrangement affect history, especially if and when Europeans begin settling and colonizing other continents? Would Spanish and French colonialists be willing to convert natives into their "national" churches? Or would they petition the Pope to form new churches to better control the formerly-heathen natives?

It might be easier to have nationalized Protestant Churches than a "national" Catholic chapter in each nation-state. "Well of course Germans are Lutheran, Luther was German...Well of course the Swiss are Calvinists, Calvin was Swiss" and so on from there. Whatever reformer of Nation X, the Protestants of that nation hold up Reformer X as the pillar of Christian truth and a new apostle for their nationality.
 
Um no its really not. Many states have national Churches that are semi-independent. As stated in this thread several Catholic Churches were virtually autonomous from Rome but were still functionally Roman Catholic. The French Gallican Church would have been autonomous if fully implemented, the German Church was moving towards that with the congress of Ems, both Spain and Portugal had heavily reduced the Vatican's power in their respective countries, and there was even an attempt in Tuscany reduce Papal control. So it wouldn't be to difficult to do.

All these national Catholic Churches you mentioned were very politicized. Louis XIV who used to act like the 'Sun King' wanted to control everything. The pope was somehow a rival.
 
It might be easier to have nationalized Protestant Churches than a "national" Catholic chapter in each nation-state. "Well of course Germans are Lutheran, Luther was German...Well of course the Swiss are Calvinists, Calvin was Swiss" and so on from there. Whatever reformer of Nation X, the Protestants of that nation hold up Reformer X as the pillar of Christian truth and a new apostle for their nationality.

Calvin was French, from Picardy (northern France).
 
A Catholic Church organized along national lines is just impossible. Each Church would fell under the rule of the King/President/Dictator who would use this spiritual institution for political purposes.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's".

And? That's basically how the church worked OTL anyway when you where in the Popes good graces. Only now it'd be organized more like the Orthodox church is organized. Hell if they started growing beards and allowing married people to become priests they'd eliminate some of the biggest differences between the two churches.
 
And? That's basically how the church worked OTL anyway when you where in the Popes good graces.

All heads of state wished to control the Church by appointing the bishops. I don't think the Catholic Church is intended to be subject to a temporal power. Why do you think the Vatican is an independent state?

Only now it'd be organized more like the Orthodox church is organized. Hell if they started growing beards and allowing married people to become priests they'd eliminate some of the biggest differences between the two churches.

The Eastern Catholic Churches (Maronites, Melkites, Chaldeans, Ukrainian Greek Catholics, etc.) allow priests to marry...
 
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All heads of state wished to control the Church by appointing the bishops. I don't think the Catholic Church is intended to be subject to a temporal power. Why do you think the Vatican is an independent state?
"Catholic Church" has no capability of "intending" anything. The bishops and clergy would have preferred to elect their bishops by cathedral chapters, not allow Vatican to appoint them.
 
"Catholic Church" has no capability of "intending" anything. The bishops and clergy would have preferred to elect their bishops by cathedral chapters, not allow Vatican to appoint them.

Well they can prefer whatever they want, but really do you think they would elect a candidate not supported by the King of whatever nation they are in? I don't think so.
 
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