AHC: Role Reverse Christianity and Islam

Islam spread after Muslim forces conquered an empire and made it the state religion, requiring subjects to convert or pay a tax.

Actually, during the Umayyad era, Islam was seen as something only for ethnic Arabs (on the grounds that the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic), and non-Arabs were discouraged from converting in order to keep up jizya revenue (which was indeed higher than the tax on Muslims). It was only with the rise of the Abbasids that non-Arabs started converting in much larger numbers.
 

Mookie

Banned
Actually, during the Umayyad era, Islam was seen as something only for ethnic Arabs (on the grounds that the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic), and non-Arabs were discouraged from converting in order to keep up jizya revenue (which was indeed higher than the tax on Muslims). It was only with the rise of the Abbasids that non-Arabs started converting in much larger numbers.

The Christians pay more taxes to the state, but pay less taxes overall.
 
The Christians pay more taxes to the state, but pay less taxes overall.

Are you including "zakat" (alms) as taxes Muslims pay?

It sounds strange to me to speak of "paying more taxes to the state, but less overall". Aren't taxes by definition paid to the state/government, or am I missing some context?
 
Keep the Ottoman Empire from being partitioned thus keeping most of Arabia from falling into chaos which ultimately allowed the minority of extremists to eventually become influential and eventually spread there warped version of Islam throughout the Middle-East and Northern Africa.
 

Mookie

Banned
Are you including "zakat" (alms) as taxes Muslims pay?

It sounds strange to me to speak of "paying more taxes to the state, but less overall". Aren't taxes by definition paid to the state/government, or am I missing some context?

Zekat is also sort of a tax. First because its obligatory. If we use monetary interests as cause for converstion then we have to wonder how is it profitable, since now you pay more taxes, simply less to the government
 
Are you including "zakat" (alms) as taxes Muslims pay?

It sounds strange to me to speak of "paying more taxes to the state, but less overall". Aren't taxes by definition paid to the state/government, or am I missing some context?

Zakat is an obligatory tax upon Muslims that is not tradtitonally not paid to the government but instead used for charity, so Mookie is right, I stand corrected.
 
ehh ... Otto I conquered Denmark in 950 and made it a vassal state (and forcing Harold Bluetooth to convert to Christianity) and in general peddled Christianity quite hard in an attempt to stop the state sponsored piracy (to go Viking) ...
You had tentatives, and succes of Christianisation since the late Carolingians (Anschaire, around 850 for instance)
For Harold Bluetooth, it was what prevented him to do as Haakon (or that any defeated Scandinavian leader that had to convert after a defeat) and to renounce to his new faith : that Christianism was already established structurally in Jutland.

that HRE control of Denmark was lost again three decades later around the time of the death of Otto II is just a historical twist.
HRE never had a real control of Jutland to begin with : it was why they tended to have a settlement policy in the region (that failed quite quickly).

In fact, as the bishops of Danemark (that, again, were already established) had to sware alligeance to the newly christened Harald, they ceased to be imperial vassals (I'll concede that as Bremen metropolitain had his seat in Imperial territory, Germans still had an hold there).
The simply fact (that you underlined) that Sven welcomed british clergy, shows that Danish kings pursued a policy of independence towards Germany (and its clergy).

The Christians pay more taxes to the state, but pay less taxes overall.
Not really. It was quite customary to make Non-Muslims pay both dhimmi taxes and the taxes technically reserved to Muslims since the VIIth century.
 

Mookie

Banned
You had tentatives, and succes of Christianisation since the late Carolingians (Anschaire, around 850 for instance)
For Harold Bluetooth, it was what prevented him to do as Haakon (or that any defeated Scandinavian leader that had to convert after a defeat) and to renounce to his new faith : that Christianism was already established structurally in Jutland.


HRE never had a real control of Jutland to begin with : it was why they tended to have a settlement policy in the region (that failed quite quickly).

In fact, as the bishops of Danemark (that, again, were already established) had to sware alligeance to the newly christened Harald, they ceased to be imperial vassals (I'll concede that as Bremen metropolitain had his seat in Imperial territory, Germans still had an hold there).
The simply fact (that you underlined) that Sven welcomed british clergy, shows that Danish kings pursued a policy of independence towards Germany (and its clergy).


Not really. It was quite customary to make Non-Muslims pay both dhimmi taxes and the taxes technically reserved to Muslims since the VIIth century.

Any evidence of non-muslims paying Zakat?
 
Keeping Islamic society "civilized" if that is the term you insist on is easy enough, any number of butterfly points among the Mughals, the Mongols, the Ottomans and Andalusians could keep the spirit of "golden age" free inquiry and tolerance going.

What you cannot butterfly away easily is centuries of subjugation by Christian powers over Muslim ones through empire and mission over the last few hundred years. That has a huge impact on why there is rage and inequality today.

One TL that makes a spirited attempt at a more equal relationship where Muslim civilization has an advantage is Essam's Minarets of Atlantis.
 
Any evidence of non-muslims paying Zakat?

There's occurences of Christians traders (living in Muslim countries, as opposed to foreign traders) having to pay such as in Fatimid Egypt. It's mentioned by Ibn Jubayr on this specific exemple.

I know it was the case in other settings, but my point was mainly about 'usr as it became, more or less at the same time than kharaj, a tax no longer related on individual religion but "land's religion".

Of course, you have zakat 'uyun that was payed by everybody, but in all honesty, I'm not sure it was concieved as a Muslim tax at the beggining (while the name could imply so)
 
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