AHC: RN "Copenhagens" German Navy

Da Pwnzlord

Banned
Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to have the British Royal Navy attempt to destroy the German fleet at anchor, with a POD no earlier than the launch of the HMS Dreadnought in 1906.

Rules: The attack must commence or recommence hostilities between Britain and Germany. It does not count if both countries are already at war. For the sake keeping the timeline basically recognizable, the attack must happen no later than 1920. The British do not need to succeed in their mission to meet the requirements of the TL.


Is it viable? When would be the best time for the Royal Navy to attempt something like this? What would the international reaction be? What would be the course of the following war?
 
Does it involve Harry Flashman being dragged out of retirement only to, via caddishness and accidental manouverings, getting the High Sea Fleet out of harbour? (Probably in hot pursuit of him, and the Admiral's mistress, in a rowing boat, fortuitously taking them towards the entire Grand Fleet, guns at the ready?)
 
The Royal Navy were planning a Taranto-style air attack for 1918 (the planes were delayed). Have this go ahead, and work well due to the sheer surprise and novelty (they were talking about well over a 100 planes!), taking the german navy by surprise (no damage control or hatches shut), and its quite possible to sink a good part of the heavy fleet units
 
Any sort of close range attack in confined waters on an enemy shore in modern history is nearly suicidal, as the defender has the huge advantage of owning the coastline and its defenses, as well as deploying light fast attack forces against an enemy with much larger vessels, besides the likely possibility of having defensive minefileds near its key strategic possitions. The only likely attack on an enemy main military navalbase is by air, or by stealth (submarine), since surfaceships cannot do this anymore, being too vissible and too big a target in the conficed waters near a coastline.

So the "Copenhagen" scenario is doomed from the beginning, unless the attacking side can deploy reasonable long range strikes with high perfoming aircraft, which is something less likely, due to the experimental status of the FAA in the period prior to 1920. The available aircraft simply were too few in numbers and too fragile to deliver the needed punch against an enemy fleet in a defended base. Their weapons too were not yet fully capable of doing serious damage as well, since the payload of the pre 1920 aircraft was too small to even damage the paintings of an armored warship. Also the possibility of enemy aircraft in the erea was likely, and the attacking side needed to provide escorts as well for the strike. With only just two aircraft carriers in all, with at best some 20 - 30 aircraft totalling, the strike would be unlikely to be sufficient. (and it had to be a day attack, since nightflying was still unheard of mostly.)
 
Any sort of close range attack in confined waters on an enemy shore in modern history is nearly suicidal, as the defender has the huge advantage of owning the coastline and its defenses, as well as deploying light fast attack forces against an enemy with much larger vessels, besides the likely possibility of having defensive minefileds near its key strategic possitions. The only likely attack on an enemy main military navalbase is by air, or by stealth (submarine), since surfaceships cannot do this anymore, being too vissible and too big a target in the conficed waters near a coastline.

So the "Copenhagen" scenario is doomed from the beginning, unless the attacking side can deploy reasonable long range strikes with high perfoming aircraft, which is something less likely, due to the experimental status of the FAA in the period prior to 1920. The available aircraft simply were too few in numbers and too fragile to deliver the needed punch against an enemy fleet in a defended base. Their weapons too were not yet fully capable of doing serious damage as well, since the payload of the pre 1920 aircraft was too small to even damage the paintings of an armored warship. Also the possibility of enemy aircraft in the erea was likely, and the attacking side needed to provide escorts as well for the strike. With only just two aircraft carriers in all, with at best some 20 - 30 aircraft totalling, the strike would be unlikely to be sufficient. (and it had to be a day attack, since nightflying was still unheard of mostly.)

A couple of points
Ther RN was looking at an attacking force of over a 100 planes. Which was why it was delayed (originaly intended for 1918, postponed to 1919) because the industry couoldnt produce all the planes they wanted.
Second, the payload of some WW1 planes was surprisingly high - certainly high enough to carry a torpedo.
Also remember, at this point capital ships were far more poorly protected than in WW2.
Yes, an attack against prepared defences would be suicidal. But this would be the first one of its kind, so there wouldnt be any preparation. Indeed, the ships in harbour would be in a fragile condition, watertight integrety not set, IIRC German warships also had their men living ashore a lot, so not even a decent crew for DC.
I'll see if I can find the references to it, it was a formidible plan for the time
 

Da Pwnzlord

Banned
I'm almost certain the British used torpedo bombers at some point the Gallipoli campaign. I have a book about Gallipoli that has a picture of torpedo bomber in it, but it's packed away because I'm moving. I don't recall whether or not they were particularly sucessful, but the technology for an early Taranto was there. Although I thought that the torpedoes for Taranto and Pearl Harbor were modified for shallow water, something of a novelty in WWII, so that may be a barrier to such a raid.
 
The traditional German capital ship was inteded and designed to take torpedoes more easily than their foreign counterparts, even when just reduced to "unmanned hulks", since indeed their crews normally were stationed on the land, when in port. The simple exisitence of the double hull in all German capital ships would force the British to hole them at several places to sink them, which is soemthing not easily done, with a strike of only a few planes at best. It simply is a numbers game, since there would be some 20, or more German capital ships and just between 20 and 30 attacking aircraft. More was not available as HMS Furious and HMS Argus together could not carry more planes and there were at the pre 1920 period no other aircraft carriers, capable of taking in torpedo armed planes.

I agree that the strike coudl at least damage some ships, if their torpedoproblem in shallow water was solved, but that would be it. All German ships sunk in port could be raised after the attack and repaired, as the Jade river was simply too shallow to completely submerge them, when settled at the bottom. (See maps of the Wilhelmshaven anchoring places in Janes Warships of WW1.)

Besides this, have you also considered the possibility of German warships inside the docks as well, which was normally done at Wilhelmshaven with a significant part fo the fleet? Torpedoes don't work well against ships inside a drydock, or lock. (Like USS Pennsylvania at Pearl Harbor)
 

Cook

Banned

That's what the Italian navy thought at Taranto


And we know how stronger was the Italian Navy..


The Italian Navy had two battleships put out of action at Taranto; the Cavour and the Littorio. The Littorio, despite being hit by three torpedoes, did not sink and was quickly repaired.

Taranto demonstrated that torpedo aircraft could hit targets in a shallow water bay, it was not a decisive attack and if anything should have taught the Japanese that it is extremely important to destroy dry dock and other repair facilities in such an attack.

The Regia Marina continued to operate effectively right up until July 1942 when their supplies of oil for the battleships dwindled.
 
There are references in Massey's Castles of Steel that the Royal Navy did attempt a seaplane attack against Wilhelmshaven in the opening days of the Great War, but most of their planes never made it to Wilhelmshaven.
 
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