AHC: Revolutionary Europe Colonizes India

Based on a comment I made in the "Westerners majority in India" thread...

Have the French Revolution lead to the unification of as much of Europe as possible into a revolutionary state. Have them then extend their power into India (via existing French colonies would be the best bet).

Bonus points if their attempts to impose their ideology (abolishing the caste system, banning suttee, etc.) on India leads to a massive counterrevolutionary revolt that gets squashed, killing a large percentage of Indian men, and the ruling government proceeds to allow its soldiers and colonists to practice polygamy with the ultimate goal of assimilating Indians into Western culture.
 
To tell the truth that is quite ASB. What kind of revolt in India would lead to the killing of most males? You would need to have such a large number of men revolting that the European army would be smaller. Also, what makes you think that a revolutionary Europe would even combine. If your goal is assimilation of India so that it is European, than you might want to go with a major natural disaster or something similar, because you can't get the result you want with petty humans involved.
 
You'd need a Dark Ages-Middle Ages type of POD here.

The only thing I can think of is the development of a new highly "racist", prejudiced strain of Christianity that really screws up peoples morals. I think the Irish League in SReagans TL/series The Strong West Wind would be a great model for this, they basically see themselves as the only true humans, the "Sons of Adam" whereas the rest of the world is some sort of pre-Adamist practice attempts, or just the spawn of monekys being fucked by demons.

Ta da, genocidal Christian empire that's 1) eager to gain converts and 2) had no bones about killing everyone because they have no souls anyway :)
 
Ta da, genocidal Christian empire that's 1) eager to gain converts and 2) had no bones about killing everyone because they have no souls anyway :)

But how does conversion change your nature, if non-Irish or whomever are monkeys and not really human?

Maybe they get Calvinist-ish and claim that conversion is proof you're NOT a monkey.
 
But how does conversion change your nature, if non-Irish or whomever are monkeys and not really human?

Maybe they get Calvinist-ish and claim that conversion is proof you're NOT a monkey.

By accepting Christ as the one true Lord and God, and the Pontiff as his sole representitive on earth, unquestionable and infallible in all things, you have seen the light and may enter heaven.
They're probably got something like the old 19th century Race ladders where certain peoples are seen as more evolved. So Germanic people (Germans, English, French, Scandinavians), then Latin people (Italians, Spanish, Greek) and on and on untill you get to the bottom, Slavs, Asians, Irish and Blacks.

I think that works :p

Also, the Irish League is just a name, it's probably majority Briton or Frankish looking at the maps, but that interpretation of Christianity originates in Ireland in his TL.
 
Killing a majority of Indian men? Not doable.

How about just a majority of rebels, with those on your side being brainwashed?

In the other thread, I suggested Sikhism being used as a transitional ideology into the Cult of Reason.

"Western" is a cultural term, not a racial one, after all.
 
How about just a majority of rebels, with those on your side being brainwashed?

In the other thread, I suggested Sikhism being used as a transitional ideology into the Cult of Reason.

"Western" is a cultural term, not a racial one, after all.
Wouldn't they need a massive army to do that in the first place? Which raises the problems of getting to India and leaving Europe open to Britain and Russia.
 
How about just a majority of rebels, with those on your side being brainwashed?

In the other thread, I suggested Sikhism being used as a transitional ideology into the Cult of Reason.

"Western" is a cultural term, not a racial one, after all.

"Brainwashing" the numbers you'd need doesn't sound particularly practical.
 
You'd need a Dark Ages-Middle Ages type of POD here.

The only thing I can think of is the development of a new highly "racist", prejudiced strain of Christianity that really screws up peoples morals. I think the Irish League in SReagans TL/series The Strong West Wind would be a great model for this, they basically see themselves as the only true humans, the "Sons of Adam" whereas the rest of the world is some sort of pre-Adamist practice attempts, or just the spawn of monekys being fucked by demons.

Ta da, genocidal Christian empire that's 1) eager to gain converts and 2) had no bones about killing everyone because they have no souls anyway :)

I don't think there's a pretext for such a thing to evolve before the modern era.
 
I was playing with this idea for a while now. There is an interesting way to get enlightened imperialism, have the french revolution succeed and in full on conquer mode and (the already mentioned) Cult of Reason as a major ideological pillar. There are now extremely progressive people in charge. One of them develops a theory resembling "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared M. Diamond.
Now instead of the "The White Man's Burden", you get something like the "The Thinking Man's Burden" Unleash a crusade against all those inferior cultures including those on the Indian sub-continent and their reactionary ideas like the caste system and suttee (widow burning).
I am not sure who to get a genocide thou.
 
I was playing with this idea for a while now. There is an interesting way to get enlightened imperialism, have the french revolution succeed and in full on conquer mode and (the already mentioned) Cult of Reason as a major ideological pillar. There are now extremely progressive people in charge. One of them develops a theory resembling "Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies" by Jared M. Diamond.
Now instead of the "The White Man's Burden", you get something like the "The Thinking Man's Burden" Unleash a crusade against all those inferior cultures including those on the Indian sub-continent and their reactionary ideas like the caste system and suttee (widow burning).
I am not sure who to get a genocide thou.

Yeah, ok, pretty much what Merry said. This still doesn't cover just how the Europeans are actually going to be able to project anywhere near the amount of force necessary to "crusade" against India. IOTL the British managed it by coopting Indian elites and using Indian soldiers as the backbone of their army. An invading force on some sort of crusade is going to unite all the disparate groups of the Indian subcontinent. Those who don't die from disease, heatstroke or dehydration and the complete insufficiency of contemporary logistics to handle a campaign of this magnitude and over such a distance are going to be facing numbers far greater than they could possibly match.

Also, problematically, Indian society isn't monolithic- the caste system worked in different ways in different regions (e.g. Brahmins had very little significance in much of South India) and practices like suttee weren't universal either.

Also (not just directed at Sonderbund but also at people in this thread in general) don't forget- at this time there's no tech advantage for the Europeans. Indian armies in the 1790s were technologically on par with Europe. Indian state armies tended to have extremely sophisticated artillery corps- where they lagged behind was in training disciplined infantry. The British were able to win by picking their battles very carefully and using their disciplined Indian sepoys to good effect- they didn't go out and fight everyone at once.
 
I like the idea of a crazy revolutionary European superstate, enlightened imperialism, and Crusades of Reason. But I don't think that they'd succeed in India if they tried it.

It might end up with the British supporting the Indians against the European Reason-cultists, and the Europeans driven out of India. Cue a 19th century struggle between the Enlightened Imperialists and the Anglo-Indian Imperialists.
 
Also (not just directed at Sonderbund but also at people in this thread in general) don't forget- at this time there's no tech advantage for the Europeans. Indian armies in the 1790s were technologically on par with Europe.

I am well aware that i only (briefly) covered the ideological basis for radical enlightenment imperialism in my post. When I came up with the idea this was an obvious problem. They have to deal with the British Empire first if they ever want to go crusading. So they need some better technology to conquer the world and compete with the Empire, something that can happen with the right combination of the following PODs:


Jacuard/Vaucanson start an early industrial revolution in france with a proto-NC machine. (A really cool POD idea by MacCaulay)


Vaucanson died while he was working on regulating the French silk industry. He had designed a mechanical loom that more or less took manual weaving out of the equation and only had the person load it. The concept was that punch cards would be fed through the top, giving a modicum of control to the speed and movement of the loom.
Enter Joseph Marie Jacquard: this man took Vaucanson's design and improved on it, taking multiple punch cards and putting them together into a string with each line on a card representing a line of pattern that the loom prints out.
In 1801 Vaucanson and Joseph Marie Jacquard invented a proto-NC tape machine.
NC is short for Numerical Coding, or the use of a code to tell a tool (in that case a loom) where to move and how. It was the precursor to CNC, or Computer Numerical Coding which allowed modern flight control surfaces of helicopters and jets to be built with accuracy and repetition. (literally: CNC was actually invented by a man who had a USAF helicopter contract from Sikorsky)
What Jacqaurd (or anyone else for that matter) didn't seem to put together for many decades was that the same punched cards that could move a loom (or a player piano) in incredibly precise and intricate steps could also be used for a lathe. Vaucanson was one of the few men who seemed to have both ideas at once, but he never put them together.


Now they can reliably and precisely mass produce weapons. This means those two things become much more viable:


1.The Ferguson rifle was the first breech loading rifle to be widely tested by the British military. Other breech loaders were experimented with in various commands, including earlier versions of the Ordnance rifle by Ferguson when he was in the "Fever Islands". It was often misreported by historians to be a .65 (.648 true) caliber rifle. However, it actually used a standard British carbine ball of .615 caliber. The use of an oversized ball contributed to some of the erroneous claims of fouling and inaccuracy. The Ferguson Ordnance Rifle was used by the British Army in the American War of Independence at the end of the 1770s. Its superior firepower was unappreciated at the time because it was too expensive, the Crown treasury was too low, the Brown Bess musket was too new (only 10 years into its 50-year lifespan)and the gunsmiths of England could not produce them fast enough for mass deployment during the American War. The combined gunsmiths of England could produce 500 muskets a month, but the 4 gunsmiths making Ferguson's Ordnance Rifle could not make 100 in 6 months at 4 times the cost per arm of a musket.




2. The Puckle gun (also known as the Defence gun) was invented in 1718 by James Puckle (1667–1724) an English inventor, lawyer and writer
It is a tripod-mounted, single-barreled flintlock weapon fitted with a multishot revolving cylinder. It was intended for shipboard use to prevent boarding. The barrel was 3 feet (0.91m) long with a bore of 1.25 inches (32mm). It had a pre-loaded cylinder which held 11 charges and could fire 63 shots in seven minutes—this at a time when the standard soldier's musket could at best be loaded and fired three times per minute.
The Puckle Gun drew few investors and never achieved mass production or sales to the British armed forces, mostly because British gunsmiths at the time could not easily make the weapon's many complicated components. One newspaper of the period sarcastically observed, following the business venture's failure, that the gun has "only wounded those who hold shares therein"


Add stuff like Robert Fultons steam ship and Nicéphore Niépce internal combustion engine and they have all the firepower they need.
 
Notice both those weapons were British, not French or any other kind of European, and how they were both much more expensive and impractical than the rockets the Indians pioneered and mass-produced at this time and were adopted by all the world's armies.
 
I am well aware that i only (briefly) covered the ideological basis for radical enlightenment imperialism in my post. When I came up with the idea this was an obvious problem. They have to deal with the British Empire first if they ever want to go crusading. So they need some better technology to conquer the world and compete with the Empire, something that can happen with the right combination of the following PODs:


Jacuard/Vaucanson start an early industrial revolution in france with a proto-NC machine. (A really cool POD idea by MacCaulay)


Vaucanson died while he was working on regulating the French silk industry. He had designed a mechanical loom that more or less took manual weaving out of the equation and only had the person load it. The concept was that punch cards would be fed through the top, giving a modicum of control to the speed and movement of the loom.
Enter Joseph Marie Jacquard: this man took Vaucanson's design and improved on it, taking multiple punch cards and putting them together into a string with each line on a card representing a line of pattern that the loom prints out.
In 1801 Vaucanson and Joseph Marie Jacquard invented a proto-NC tape machine.
NC is short for Numerical Coding, or the use of a code to tell a tool (in that case a loom) where to move and how. It was the precursor to CNC, or Computer Numerical Coding which allowed modern flight control surfaces of helicopters and jets to be built with accuracy and repetition. (literally: CNC was actually invented by a man who had a USAF helicopter contract from Sikorsky)
What Jacqaurd (or anyone else for that matter) didn't seem to put together for many decades was that the same punched cards that could move a loom (or a player piano) in incredibly precise and intricate steps could also be used for a lathe. Vaucanson was one of the few men who seemed to have both ideas at once, but he never put them together.


Now they can reliably and precisely mass produce weapons. This means those two things become much more viable:


1.The Ferguson rifle was the first breech loading rifle to be widely tested by the British military. Other breech loaders were experimented with in various commands, including earlier versions of the Ordnance rifle by Ferguson when he was in the "Fever Islands". It was often misreported by historians to be a .65 (.648 true) caliber rifle. However, it actually used a standard British carbine ball of .615 caliber. The use of an oversized ball contributed to some of the erroneous claims of fouling and inaccuracy. The Ferguson Ordnance Rifle was used by the British Army in the American War of Independence at the end of the 1770s. Its superior firepower was unappreciated at the time because it was too expensive, the Crown treasury was too low, the Brown Bess musket was too new (only 10 years into its 50-year lifespan)and the gunsmiths of England could not produce them fast enough for mass deployment during the American War. The combined gunsmiths of England could produce 500 muskets a month, but the 4 gunsmiths making Ferguson's Ordnance Rifle could not make 100 in 6 months at 4 times the cost per arm of a musket.




2. The Puckle gun (also known as the Defence gun) was invented in 1718 by James Puckle (1667–1724) an English inventor, lawyer and writer
It is a tripod-mounted, single-barreled flintlock weapon fitted with a multishot revolving cylinder. It was intended for shipboard use to prevent boarding. The barrel was 3 feet (0.91m) long with a bore of 1.25 inches (32mm). It had a pre-loaded cylinder which held 11 charges and could fire 63 shots in seven minutes—this at a time when the standard soldier's musket could at best be loaded and fired three times per minute.
The Puckle Gun drew few investors and never achieved mass production or sales to the British armed forces, mostly because British gunsmiths at the time could not easily make the weapon's many complicated components. One newspaper of the period sarcastically observed, following the business venture's failure, that the gun has "only wounded those who hold shares therein"


Add stuff like Robert Fultons steam ship and Nicéphore Niépce internal combustion engine and they have all the firepower they need.

When you need to have that many PODs, it just underlines the impracticality of it all.

You're also still ignoring logistics. Supplying a massive army from Europe to India when it needs ammo, parts and ancillary equipment for all your fancy weapons plus food, medication, booze etc is going to be next to impossible given contemporary transport capability. Unless you throw in another series od serendipitous discoveries involving steamship transport, containerisation and supply chain management theory.

IOTL the armies involved were a lot smaller than your grand crusade of extermination will need to be- in addition they were fighting with weapons and equipment that could mostly be locally supplied and, most importantly were not fighting a grand campaign of extermination which meant that they could concentrate on defeating enemy troops and not have to worry about the mass of peasants. If word gets out that they're murdering indiscriminately, India will explode.
 
Indiscriminate murder would defeat the whole liberal imperialism rationale.

When I came up with the notion of assimilatory polygamy, I was imagining 30 Years War type deaths in the male population with the occasional Vendee.
 
Indiscriminate murder would defeat the whole liberal imperialism rationale.

When I came up with the notion of assimilatory polygamy, I was imagining 30 Years War type deaths in the male population with the occasional Vendee.

The problem is the population of India is just too big. You can't get the results you want with just a 30 years war scenario. You need BIG! and in a very bad way, you would need Holocaust level murder combined with huge armies to enforce them. Your best bet is too go back and find a PoD that would stop India from being populated (very difficult) or have a natural disaster. Or alternatively you could have multiple Arab invasions or something that horribly lower India's population. But to tell the truth, its just so implausible that its better to give up on this one and choose something a bit easier. :((sad face)
 
The problem is the population of India is just too big. You can't get the results you want with just a 30 years war scenario. You need BIG! and in a very bad way, you would need Holocaust level murder combined with huge armies to enforce them. Your best bet is too go back and find a PoD that would stop India from being populated (very difficult) or have a natural disaster. Or alternatively you could have multiple Arab invasions or something that horribly lower India's population. But to tell the truth, its just so implausible that its better to give up on this one and choose something a bit easier. :((sad face)
Problem with that is, that it wouldn't take too long for India's population to recover. And I'm not sure why the implausibility of the prospect of India being yet another appendage in the west is so saddening.
 
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