AHC: Reverse creation of Polish-Lithuanian union

krieger

Banned
As we all (all person even barely interested in Polish or Lithuanian history) know, the union between Poland and Lithuania was formed by Jogaila, Lithuanian prince marrying Hedwig, Queen of Poland. The challenge is simple - how to manage to create a Polish-Lithuanian union by marrying a Polish king to the heiress of the throne of Lithuania? @Jan Olbracht @kasumigenx
 
Lithuania had no tradition of female inheritance (and no inheritance laws at all, Dukes designed their heirs, but still, even designed heir could be deposed by brother or cousin). House of Gediminas was large. With vast number of male members of Dynasty around, woman had little chance to inherit throne of GDL. Also, Lithuania need to be baptised first, otherwise foreign Catholic taking throne of pagan Lithuania seems completly impossible.
 

krieger

Banned
Lithuania had no tradition of female inheritance (and no inheritance laws at all, Dukes designed their heirs, but still, even designed heir could be deposed by brother or cousin). House of Gediminas was large. With vast number of male members of Dynasty around, woman had little chance to inherit throne of GDL. Also, Lithuania need to be baptised first, otherwise foreign Catholic taking throne of pagan Lithuania seems completly impossible.

But foreign Orthodox took the throne. Shwarn, the prince of Galitz was a ruler of Lithuania for a some time, but he was defeated by Traidenis. And at some point, the House of Gediminas was very unlucky, and it's members started to die out. I envisioned once a scenario like this - Casimir of Słupsk has a son with Kenna of Lithuania, said son manages to become King of Poland, Jogaila accepts catholicism from the Order, and is equally unlucky with heirs (perhaps even is damaged in some battle and becomes infertile), Vytautas is succesful in killing Svitrigaila (he attempted it IOTL), and enraged Jogaila kills Vytautas and having no surviving non-Orthodox brothers names his Griffin nephew a heir.
 
But foreign Orthodox took the throne. Shwarn, the prince of Galitz was a ruler of Lithuania for a some time, but he was defeated by Traidenis. And at some point, the House of Gediminas was very unlucky, and it's members started to die out. I envisioned once a scenario like this - Casimir of Słupsk has a son with Kenna of Lithuania, said son manages to become King of Poland, Jogaila accepts catholicism from the Order, and is equally unlucky with heirs (perhaps even is damaged in some battle and becomes infertile), Vytautas is succesful in killing Svitrigaila (he attempted it IOTL), and enraged Jogaila kills Vytautas and having no surviving non-Orthodox brothers names his Griffin nephew a heir.
Still, personal union needs to be preeceeded by dynastic one. Lithuanians (after baptism) could accept female line Piast or Griffin grandson of Jogaila on the throne, if such grandson is not at the same time King of Poland, who would rule them from Cracow but king's younger brother. Some time later Polish older line dies out, and younger Lithuanian line unites Poland and GDL.
 

krieger

Banned
Still, personal union needs to be preeceeded by dynastic one. Lithuanians (after baptism) could accept female line Piast or Griffin grandson of Jogaila on the throne, if such grandson is not at the same time King of Poland, who would rule them from Cracow but king's younger brother. Some time later Polish older line dies out, and younger Lithuanian line unites Poland and GDL.

But it can easily be done. Say Kenna of Lithuania lives longer and has at least one son with Casimir of Słupsk (other Casimir, born posthumously in 1377), who takes the throne of Poland after Hedwig of Anjou dies in the mysterious circumstanses. Meanwhile Jogaila accepts Catholicism from the Order and marries a daughter of some German noble, has a daughter with her (born around 1386), who marries Casimir IV of Poland. Gediminids are unlucky and are clashing between themselves, Casimir IV has a sons - Vladislaus (born around 1410) and Casimir (born around 1412), after 1434 Casimir is named new GDL, meanwhile alt-Vladislaus III of Poland goes to help surviving Georg of Austria organize crusade against Turks, and dies alongside with Georg at Varna battlefield. Casimir (now V of Poland) takes the throne.
 
But it can easily be done. Say Kenna of Lithuania lives longer and has at least one son with Casimir of Słupsk (other Casimir, born posthumously in 1377), who takes the throne of Poland after Hedwig of Anjou dies in the mysterious circumstanses. Meanwhile Jogaila accepts Catholicism from the Order and marries a daughter of some German noble, has a daughter with her (born around 1386), who marries Casimir IV of Poland. Gediminids are unlucky and are clashing between themselves, Casimir IV has a sons - Vladislaus (born around 1410) and Casimir (born around 1412), after 1434 Casimir is named new GDL, meanwhile alt-Vladislaus III of Poland goes to help surviving Georg of Austria organize crusade against Turks, and dies alongside with Georg at Varna battlefield. Casimir (now V of Poland) takes the throne.
If all Catholic male members of House of Gediminas are gone by that time (IOTL few were left after time of Jogaila's death, *here* that number is further reduced with Švitrigaila killed) then it could work no worse that with Frederick the Iron.

BTW Casimir the Great counted himself as Casimir I, so Casimir V should be Casimir III instead.
 

krieger

Banned
If all Catholic male members of House of Gediminas are gone by that time (IOTL few were left after time of Jogaila's death, *here* that number is further reduced with Švitrigaila killed) then it could work no worse that with Frederick the Iron.

BTW Casimir the Great counted himself as Casimir I, so Casimir V should be Casimir III instead.

ITTL both Sigismund and his son are exiled after Jogaila being enraged on Kęstutis descendants after Svitrigaila being killed. It'd work even better, grandsons of Casimir of Słupsk have Lithuanian blood in themselves, unlike Frederick the Iron, who operated on the claims of his wife. Numeration of Polish kings was up to themselves, so Casimir Griffin counts himself V at that time.
 
Maybe it is not exactly what you were looking for, but I have another idea of Lithuania under House of Griffin.
-Casimir of Słupsk have children with both his wives: son (Bogusław) with Joanna of Lithuania and few daughters with Margaret of Mazovia.
-Jogaila marries Casimir's youngest daughter after death of Hedwig (instead of Anna of Cili). She happened to be sterile, but lives long enough to outlive Jogaila.
-childless Jogaila chose his wife's half brother (who is also his nephew and great-grandson of Casimir the Great) to be his heir.
What would you say about it?
 

krieger

Banned
Maybe it is not exactly what you were looking for, but I have another idea of Lithuania under House of Griffin.
-Casimir of Słupsk have children with both his wives: son (Bogusław) with Joanna of Lithuania and few daughters with Margaret of Mazovia.
-Jogaila marries Casimir's youngest daughter after death of Hedwig (instead of Anna of Cili). She happened to be sterile, but lives long enough to outlive Jogaila.
-childless Jogaila chose his wife's half brother (who is also his nephew and great-grandson of Casimir the Great) to be his heir.
What would you say about it?

I think that this pretty much fulfills my idea. Why I would be against this scenario? Despite of Jogaila getting Poland as IOTL, there is a Polish prince gaining Lithuania.
 
I think that this pretty much fulfills my idea. Why I would be against this scenario? Despite of Jogaila getting Poland as IOTL, there is a Polish prince gaining Lithuania.
OK. Although that Bogusław would be an old man at the time of Jogaila's death (he'd be born in 1368) so possibly his son(s) would succeede. Perhaps Bogusław's son (born in 1390s/ early 1400s) would marry Maria Vasilievna of Moscow, granddaughter of Vytautas? IOTL Vytautas wanted Jogaila to marry her aftef death of Anna of Cili, but Jogaila choosen Granowska. There is problem of religion, but Ruthenian princesses married Catholic and even pagan rulers before.
 

krieger

Banned
OK. Although that Bogusław would be an old man at the time of Jogaila's death (he'd be born in 1368) so possibly his son(s) would succeede. Perhaps Bogusław's son (born in 1390s/ early 1400s) would marry Maria Vasilievna of Moscow, granddaughter of Vytautas? IOTL Vytautas wanted Jogaila to marry her aftef death of Anna of Cili, but Jogaila choosen Granowska. There is problem of religion, but Ruthenian princesses married Catholic and even pagan rulers before.

I'd say it's possible. Maria Vasilievna could even convert, I doubt if Vasili I was as zealous as Ivan III. And who could Bogusław himself marry? Maybe Ricardis Catherine of Mecklenburg (OTL wife of John of Luxembourg)?
 
I'd say it's possible. Maria Vasilievna could even convert, I doubt if Vasili I was as zealous as Ivan III. And who could Bogusław himself marry? Maybe Ricardis Catherine of Mecklenburg (OTL wife of John of Luxembourg)?
Perhaps, but what about John of Görlitz then?
 
Perhaps we should avoid Elizabeth of Pomerania being married to Charles IV for starters for Casimir of Slupsk to be considered as heir, perhaps we can have Elizabeth married to a Bavarian - perhaps we can have Margaret of Brieg marry Charles IV and Elizabeth of Pomerania to Albert I, duke of Bavaria, Hainault and Holland, we would not have Casimir III remarry and just be happy with his third wife and changing the history of the Burgundian inheritance.
 
Also, we should expect teenage Bogusław to be possible rival of Jogaila after death of Louis d'Anjou, possibly with high support among nobles of Greater Poland.
 
I wonder if POD would butterfly away Eric of Pomerania. His father ITTL needs to share his duchy with nephew and has lower position than IOTL.
 
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