AHC: Revers the situations of Canada and Mexico

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With a POD anytime after 1900, turn Mexico into a stable, prosperous, developed industrial nation with one of the highest standard of living in the world and whose close political, economic & industrial ties to USA make it viewed as “USA’s hat” (USA’s beard? :p). Meanwhile Canada is to become a developing nation with high crime rates, endemic political corruption and gang warfare. By 2000s large areas of the country are controlled by organized crime cartels and many Canadians enter USA illegally in search of a better life only to end up working low wage medial jobs.

Now if you find this too challenging, you can use a 19th century POD if you want as long as it doesn’t butterfly away OTL territory of Mexico and Canada (so, for example, you can’t butterfly away the Mexican-American war and have Mexico keep the territory it lost in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo).
 

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If Diaz dies in 1908 and butterfly the Mexican Revolution maybe they could develop a middle class as for Canada I don't know.
 
If Diaz dies in 1908 and butterfly the Mexican Revolution maybe they could develop a middle class as for Canada I don't know.
POD's way too late, Canada was a prosperous part of the British Empire while Mexico was already screwed.

Go back to the 1700s and its possible.
Maybe the 1800s but i doubt it.
 
Canada becomes either part of the US, or strong US ally. It becomes the location of most nuclear facilities in North America.

Nuclear war happens.

Mexico, who does a bit better in the 20th century due to butterflies and is already a democracy anyway, absorbs the remaining pieces of the US and Canada.
 
Canada becomes either part of the US, or strong US ally. It becomes the location of most nuclear facilities in North America.

Nuclear war happens.

Mexico, who does a bit better in the 20th century due to butterflies and is already a democracy anyway, absorbs the remaining pieces of the US and Canada.
umm.... no; just no
 
umm.... no; just no

Only way I can think of to satisfy the scenario.

Unless some sort of Anglo fascist movement arises in Britain in the 70s or something, spreading to Canada. While the Quebecois also form a huge terrorist organization.

At the same time, Mexico would have to not have the Revolution or have a better Revolution.
 
Only way I can think of to satisfy the scenario.

Unless some sort of Anglo fascist movement arises in Britain in the 70s or something, spreading to Canada. While the Quebecois also form a huge terrorist organization.

At the same time, Mexico would have to not have the Revolution or have a better Revolution.
i think mexico needs a whole different 19th century in general, by 1900 they were in trouble and it was only getting worse.

while canada, only got better and better during the 1800s and became a large source of income for the Brits.

If you think of countries like people, with spain being mexicos parent and britain canadas; then you see that the countries that did better overall, well their colonies tended to do better overall.

Not sure exactly why, but the parent scenario fits best i think.
 
How much of a Canada would there be left in such a case? If it gets really bad, wouldn't a Province or two have themselves a Constutitonal Convention and apply for admission to the Union? I don't think Quebec would, and I'm not sure about Ontario. What about the western Provinces or Maritime ones?
 
i think mexico needs a whole different 19th century in general, by 1900 they were in trouble and it was only getting worse.
No.

Mexico by the 1900's was bad, social-wise, but it had been doing quite well in a macro-economic scale. The problem was that there was an abysmal difference between the upper and the middle and low classes.

What we would need would be Francisco I. Madero being less of an idealistic idiot, and a purge against the remainders of the Porfirista government, since quite a lot of them ended up in the government after Diaz got toppled, as some of them are to blame for the post-revolutionary problems. Afterwards, reaching a compromise between the other factions, giving them what they want, little by little.

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And as for Canada, I don't know.
 

Incognito

Banned
And as for Canada, I don't know.
Isn't Canada's industry centered mostly in Quebec & Ontario (& oil industry in Alberta, though only in the last few decades)? Perhaps you can get Quebec trying to secede violently, triggering a Canadian Civil War which devastates Ontario and Quebec industry, leaving the country an agrarian nation?
 
Isn't Canada's industry centered mostly in Quebec & Ontario (& oil industry in Alberta, though only in the last few decades)? Perhaps you can get Quebec trying to secede violently, triggering a Canadian Civil War which devastates Ontario and Quebec industry, leaving the country an agrarian nation?
why would they try to secede?
Canada is a British dominion til the 50s and afterwards powerful enough (and has US assistance) to put down any uprisings.

1900 is too late don't care what anyone says unless they completely pwn and prove me completely incorrect. ;)
 
Actually the problem for canada is three fold one it was overly white(british) nation and so many nations treated it with alot more respect when making deals than nations like mexico would get overall.


Next Canada is not so easily a place to grow large cash crops of the most addictive drugs maybe if meth becomes dominant earlier than in original timeline?

Next the population of canada is just too low and canada is to large to cause the level of internal strife needed.

Maybe if politics put a communistic government in charge who advocated population growth to prevent US domination? Maybe greater staying immigration for the early 20th century more chinese stay in canada and blacks move further into the ontario region? Then possibly a loss of British columbia/Quebec and Mantoba to the US by 1910? This would take care of the low population density and possibly build up a large non white population.





For Mexico

Next Mexico's relationship with the vatican caused a population growth which out paced its economic growth.

This alone could butterfly Mexico's economic status if it's growth could be more regulated rather than following doctrine's policy.(The same for The Philippines) And was while the uS was there to bleed off large numbers of Mexico's population could you imagine if 90% of the Mexican population in the US illegal and legal had stayed in Mexico? It would be even more of a Clusterf;#@!

Next If Mexico could have gotten a more people friendly democratic government earlier possibly thanks to some kind of shorter term limits (I feel this might have saved Liberia's from its civil war as it gives more opportunities for lower classes to get authority)

Now get the knowledge of the hazards of drugs to be more widely known earlier(possibly warned by the Qing's experince through the Opium wars) then it carcks down on internal growing and tarffic from nearby nations through its territory.
 
With a POD anytime after 1900, turn Mexico into a stable, prosperous, developed industrial nation with one of the highest standard of living in the world and whose close political, economic & industrial ties to USA make it viewed as “USA’s hat” (USA’s beard? :p). Meanwhile Canada is to become a developing nation with high crime rates, endemic political corruption and gang warfare. By 2000s large areas of the country are controlled by organized crime cartels and many Canadians enter USA illegally in search of a better life only to end up working low wage medial jobs.

Now if you find this too challenging, you can use a 19th century POD if you want as long as it doesn’t butterfly away OTL territory of Mexico and Canada (so, for example, you can’t butterfly away the Mexican-American war and have Mexico keep the territory it lost in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo).

This kinda happened in DoD, only there was no Mexico to speak of by the time TTL's Canadian civil war erupted.

The easiest thing I can think of is go that route and set up a kingdom(*blechhh!*) at some point, preferably with it's capital in Ontario somewhere, and then you could find a way to get boatloads of Irish and French into the western prairies, and/or get some radicalism going in Quebec.....after that, all you need is some oppression from the royalty and a particularly nasty reaction from even just a few of the non-royalist Canadians, and you've got a good setup for a REAL nasty civil war, and one that could potentially break the country apart.....or worse!

As for Mexico, I guess avoiding the Second Mexican Empire would be a good start. And you could also let them possibly take in a few immigrants who couldn't get into the U.S. for whatever reason. Other than that, though, I'll let others do the explaining at this point.
 

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why would they try to secede?
They did OTL. There was even a radical (though small) terrorist pro-secessionist group that got guerilla tactics training in Castro's Cuba & carried out attacks in Ottowa IIRC. Surely there is a way to make this bigger with a few butterflies here & there?

1900 is too late don't care what anyone says unless they completely pwn and prove me completely incorrect. ;)
So you're essentially saying "I say X & I don't care what anyone else says"? Fine. Thanks for your contribution to the thread.

Actually the problem for canada is three fold one it was overly white(british) nation and so many nations treated it with alot more respect when making deals than nations like mexico would get overall.
I know US classifies Mexicans as "Hispanics", but would most Europeans consider Mexicans "not-white"? I'm not 100% sure on South American race classifications in early 20th century.

Next Canada is not so easily a place to grow large cash crops of the most addictive drugs maybe if meth becomes dominant earlier than in original timeline?
BC Bud perhaps? Supposedly one of the most potent cannabis plant breeds out there.

Next the population of canada is just too low and canada is to large to cause the level of internal strife needed.

Maybe if politics put a communistic government in charge who advocated population growth to prevent US domination? Maybe greater staying immigration for the early 20th century more chinese stay in canada and blacks move further into the ontario region? Then possibly a loss of British columbia/Quebec and Mantoba to the US by 1910? This would take care of the low population density and possibly build up a large non white population.
I don't know. Seems to me all you really have to do is f*ck up Anglophone-Francophone relations in Canada bad enough & voila, you have big problems. Maybe having bigger Francophone population outside Quebec would help in this regard too.

The easiest thing I can think of is go that route and set up a kingdom(*blechhh!*) at some point, preferably with it's capital in Ontario somewhere,
Well, initially there were ideas to create a "Kingdom of Canada" rather than "Dominion of Canada" though IIRC the monarch would still be British:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Canada#Adoption_of_Dominion
 
They did OTL. There was even a radical (though small) terrorist pro-secessionist group that got guerilla tactics training in Castro's Cuba & carried out attacks in Ottowa IIRC. Surely there is a way to make this bigger with a few butterflies here & there?


I don't know. Seems to me all you really have to do is f*ck up Anglophone-Francophone relations in Canada bad enough & voila, you have big problems. Maybe having bigger Francophone population outside Quebec would help in this regard too.


The problems here are that any such conflict or civil war in Canada before 1990 would likely result in US annexation of all or most of Canada as there is not enough incentive not to annex the nation.

For Cuba, Philippines, and Haiti/Dominican Republic it was the difference in cultures and the large non white populations that kept the US from trying to fully integrate them. This is why Puerto Rico has been having such a hard time getting statehood in over a century as there is no real push to encourage them to join.

Canada would have none of these problems hince why i tried to give it a large multiethnic minority base to discourage those "finally its collapsing lets grab it" thinkers that exist even to this day(I happen to be one of them. Quebec seceed if you dare :Dlol:cool:;)).

Then there is all that oil and tar sands to encourage a American company to rally for the annexation which canadians will learn has a mindset of "screw the locals we can manage those resources better anyway":mad:

And i can tell you don't mess with Big Oil cause what Wall Street wants Wall Street gets at the barrel of a gun if neccessary!:(
 
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