AHC: Restore the Papal States

Who would cede it to them? I doubt either side in a civil war would be willing to just give up Rome and the major powers that might intervene (UK, USSR, USA) aren't usually particularly pro-Catholic. Unless France gets involved perhaps, with a Bonapartist, Legitimiste or Orleanist somehow on the throne and wanting to restore the Papal States.

Basically a total collapse of the Italian government. Nothing is "ceded", more that a state based on the Paduan plain and Veneto and another one based on the south emerge from the rubble of Italy. I don't really think it's likely.
 

That's fascinating, I always thought that the entire Leonine city was simply offered for him to actually have sovereignty over. Do you have any sources for this so I can have a bit more of a read?


I doubt they'd be offered the chance to join NATO tbh, but I imagine there would be some kind of understanding between the Catholic-Fascist and Capitalist blocs that united them at least a little against the USSR. The USSR will still lose the Cold War I reckon, although I wonder if Italy will have any problems with civil war? They certainly had problems with commies in OTL so maybe ITTL it spirals out of control and there's a communist insurgency northern/central Italy?

There'd definitely be an anti-Catholic backlash in some parts of the world. Anti-clericalism in Africa perhaps? In the USA Catholics will definitely have it hard.

I imagine they'd get the nuke in the late 50s/early60s similar to France in OTL.
 
That's fascinating, I always thought that the entire Leonine city was simply offered for him to actually have sovereignty over. Do you have any sources for this so I can have a bit more of a read?

Just do a search on google books for what people (and the Italian Govt.) were saying/writing prior to the Lateran Treaties about the Roman Question. For them, especially during Crespi's rule as Premier, the pretense of papal sovereignty over the Lateran, Vatican and Papal Gandolfo was something granted by the Kingdom of Italy as a privilege. The Italian Kingdom still claimed actual "ownership" over all papal property.

When Leo XIII threatened to leave Rome to go to Malta, Austria, etc. Crespi immediately said the Vatican would be taken over and during WWI talks the Italian govt. sent out memorandum to the other governments that the Pope should be kept out of talks since he was not actually a ruler over anything and the Law of Guarantees did not mean his treatment as a Sovereign meant he was one. Given that the Law of Guarantees was purposely made to ensure the rest of the (Catholic) World knew that Italy would give the Pope complete freedom (and indeed many Italian liberals and radicals like Garibaldi kept pressuring for the repeal of the Law and the complete takeover of the Vatican and the Pope exiled) that was probably the best deal he was going to get with the Leonine City as well. In other words, the pretence of statehood but in actuality - NOT. Therefore, the Vatican City State which made them an internationally recognized state (and gave them hundreds of millons of lira as as payment for the loss of the Papal States and made Catholicism the official religion of Italy for 50 years) was in fact the best deal the Pope ever could have gotten.

And they would not have gotten it had Pio IX or his successors taken whatever the Savoy Kingdom offered.
 
If only there's more informations about possible socialist/communist leader in Italy crazy enough to think that he could repeat what happened in Russia... in 1921 (before 1922, that's the Fascist's OTL March on Rome)

And at the same time stupid enough to let Mussolini AND OR Balbo slipped and manage countercoup afterwards, with Pope Benedict XV in tow because he was practically saved by the Fascists...

Causing the aforementioned Catholic-Fascist alliance resulting in (Un)Holy Mixing of their systems.

...

The Catholic-Fascist block will definitely more friendly toward Anglo-American capitalist block, but basically they reject true democracy in favor of "Guided/Limited Democracy" or straight up Catholic Totalitarianism (return to Medieval Papacy yay!).

Have them "politely refuse" the invitation to join NATO (due to basically want their own demi - superpower block)

And if you think McCarthy Red Scare is ridiculous, think that technically ALL Catholics have their allegiance to the Pope... Resulting in greater paranoia and such.

Add further that South America is predominantly Catholic, and with some Fascist regime already there IOTL, just need minor nudges for them to get in Catholic-Fascist international block, and from there, continues to operate against US interests, of course US cannot really intervene because Castro and Che still likely to be Red and spread Marxist Revolucion.

To give more headache on Americans' part, have Post Independence Philiphines somehow end up entering the Catholic-Fascist block as well.

The Catholic-Fascist Nuclear Program is unlikely a sole effort of Italy, more likely a joint effort between Italy, Spain, and Brazil, resulting in non US aligned nuclear warheads stored in Mexico, where just a little eastward there lies commies nuclear warheads in Cuba (3 way Cuban missile crisis should be FUN).

But yeah, with Catholic-Fascist block clearly led by Papal hands (and thus can be seen as Modern day Papal-Superstate) that was not in US interests, there will be no John F Kennedy as US President.

...

Yeah, this is unlikely, but did I just make a modern day Papal State as Superpower? :eek:
I wonder what the Troubles in Northern Ireland would look like in that TL.
 

Yuelang

Banned
I wonder what the Troubles in Northern Ireland would look like in that TL.

Sightly Milder Rehash of Renaissance Wars of Religion :D with Anglo-American Protestants in one side against Fascist-Catholics in another side :p

Without outright massacres and full scale wars with tanks and airplanes, but more bombings and full scale riots ;)

I doubt they'd be offered the chance to join NATO tbh, but I imagine there would be some kind of understanding between the Catholic-Fascist and Capitalist blocs that united them at least a little against the USSR. The USSR will still lose the Cold War I reckon, although I wonder if Italy will have any problems with civil war? They certainly had problems with commies in OTL so maybe ITTL it spirals out of control and there's a communist insurgency northern/central Italy?

There'd definitely be an anti-Catholic backlash in some parts of the world. Anti-clericalism in Africa perhaps? In the USA Catholics will definitely have it hard.

I imagine they'd get the nuke in the late 50s/early60s similar to France in OTL.

Yeah, there's something when you fight against 'Heretics' that basically still believe in Jesus compared to outright Godless commies.

Now, now, without Soviet incursions to Central Europe in WW2 and Post WW2, the communist problems in Italy are unlike to be formed, ESPECIALLY if they already rebelled first in 1920s, and the Catholic-Fascists cleans them out (burn them all, God will sort his own!?!). Outright Atheism may be outlawed as signs of communist sympathies in BOTH Capitalist bloc and Catholic-Fascist bloc (especially in the later), Agnosticism may still tolerated though, as long as you still attend the National/Evangelical/Catholic Church...

If anticolonialism still go on, there will be two variants, those with native Catholic majority will be more or less in line with Fascists and get help from Catholic-Fascist bloc, because right now, technically ALL Catholic-Fascist countries have the Pope as the Head of State. And those with non Catholic majority will be much more outright communist and anti-clerical in return. Capitalist aligned ones will be few and far between, mostly in Islamic majority populances but still...

Boy, the South Vietnam will be fun this time...
 
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I'll look it up :)

I wonder what the Troubles in Northern Ireland would look like in that TL.

I could imagine the Republic of Ireland drifting towards the Fascist-Catholic bloc, maybe even joining them, although they would almost definitely remain a democracy (later Ireland might become the model for the other members of the bloc during a transition to democracy). The civil rights movement in Northern Ireland in the 60s might have a better showing, although I imagine the Troubles will still kick off in 69. If the Church is more militant and more involved in the area, the provos might be a different organisation, more adverse to civilian casualties and more Catholic in its ideology. If that is the case, expect a higher level of violence between PIRA and the OIRA after the split as the divide between the two will be even more marked (Catholicism vs Marxism).

Now, now, without Soviet incursions to Central Europe in WW2 and Post WW2, the communist problems in Italy are unlike to be formed, ESPECIALLY if they already rebelled first in 1920s, and the Catholic-Fascists cleans them out (burn them all, God will sort his own!?!). Outright Atheism may be outlawed as signs of communist sympathies in BOTH Capitalist bloc and Catholic-Fascist bloc (especially in the later), Agnosticism may still tolerated though, as long as you still attend the National/Evangelical/Catholic Church...

That's true. I would still expect some kind of communist movement, but if it's been repressed since the 1920s it will certainly be weaker. I think we out to think of something a little more realistic for how the Royal Family is replaced by the Pope than they are simply killed by communists. If that was the case, I'd expect an increase of support for the Royals and I'm sure a cousin or something could be found to fill the throne. Perhaps if Mussolini is Catholic from the start and shapes his fascist movement around that.

To make Mussolini Catholic, we'd have to remove/reduce his father's influence over him (his father was a socialist and his mother a Catholic). Perhaps his father dies when he is a child and his mother has far more success implanting her own views in him. He starts becoming very prominent as a Catholic and nationalist for his criticism of the government (instead of as a socialist and nationalist as per OTL) before overthrowing the government in his 1922 March on Rome. Of course, without his father it might be a bit ASB that everything in his life is roughly the same (in terms of how successful he is politically) but I don't think it's too much of a stretch as in OTL he left the socialists and founded his own fascist movement anyway. When he comes to power he is far more sympathetic to the Church (perhaps TTL's Lateran Treaty gives the Pope the Leonine City too along with more money and guarantees), which upsets the royalists who see it reducing the power of the King. Eventually they try to stage their own coup but fail (as Mussolini has the support of the Church and is probably far more popular among the people) and so Mussolini does away with the Royals. In return for the support he received from the Pope, the Pope becomes the head of state of Italy (albeit a figurehead).

We'd still have the problem of the communists in that situation, but I imagine they still won't be able to seize power in Italy. I think WW2 would play out with the Germans having enough troops (i.e. not wasted helping the Italians in North Africa and the Balkans as they are neutral ITTL) to force the USSR to accept a settlement (even if it is only temporary). When the Western Allies begin to liberate Europe I'm sure the USSR would jump straight back into the fray, but it might prevent Soviet domination of so much of Europe (so the communists in Italy don't have any real foreign support).

Boy, the South Vietnam will be fun this time...

Diem may well be very popular among the Catholic-Fascist Bloc, so perhaps he turns to both them and the Americans for support ITTL. The coup and his death would most likely still happen (because of his increasing unpopularity among the Buddhists) and could well cause a crisis in relations between the Catholic-Fascists and Capitalists (as the latter would support the coup). Still, Diem might be able to build a relatively (compared to OTL South Vietnam) stable state that is actually capable of holding back North Vietnam, if he gets the support he needs. Maybe the USA wouldn't support a coup against him because of how it would alienate the Catholic-Fascist bloc.
 
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