Grand Admiral Thrawn
Donor
Who was the mole? Harry White? Always enjoy a good game of find the NKVD/KGB spy.... they were so good.
AHC: Punish Germany as harshly as possible after WW2
- Thread starter Orko
- Start date
Who was the mole? Harry White? Always enjoy a good game of find the NKVD/KGB spy.... they were so good.
Who was the mole? Harry White? Always enjoy a good game of find the NKVD/KGB spy.... they were so good.
Yup, the Soviets had the most effective spies of the war.
Realpolitik
Banned
They are very effective in intelligence in general. To this day, the Russian spy services often show up in places you'd never expect them to. Very high quality.
OP: Punishing Germany as harshly as possible was a DUMB DUMB idea with Europe in ruins, no chance whatsoever at a second "stab in the back myth", and the Cold War starting, and thankfully Harry Truman knew it and ignored Morgenthau. The dividends of this decision are too numerous and great to go over.
FDR would have eventually realized this, he was simply too good of a politician not to. My prediction is he goes along with the tough line for a while, but comes to this conclusion, should he live. At least, that's what I hope.
Realpolitik
Banned
Who was the mole? Harry White? Always enjoy a good game of find the NKVD/KGB spy.... they were so good.
Harry White should have swung. Slowly, painfully swung.
Couple of reports suggest this thread be locked.
Not going to do it, at least not yet. So far there is ONE post in this thread that went to a revolting revenge fantasy. The other on-topic posts, which are actually the distinct minority have been reasonable suggestions of harsh but non genocidal actions (Balkanization being the most common). It is also worth leaving open because there are at least as many posts questioning the wisdom of any sort of overly harsh punishment.
I trust that the overwhelming majority of the members are able to hold this sort of discussion without delving into decades of organized mass rape and slave breeding as a political tool.
Not going to do it, at least not yet. So far there is ONE post in this thread that went to a revolting revenge fantasy. The other on-topic posts, which are actually the distinct minority have been reasonable suggestions of harsh but non genocidal actions (Balkanization being the most common). It is also worth leaving open because there are at least as many posts questioning the wisdom of any sort of overly harsh punishment.
I trust that the overwhelming majority of the members are able to hold this sort of discussion without delving into decades of organized mass rape and slave breeding as a political tool.
careful with balkanization fantasies - small countries are far easier to govern and improve economically, so instead of a bunch of tiny miserable germanies you could end up with a bunch of super wealthy luxembourgs. hardly a punishment.
Well, it depends on the goal too. If the goal is to destroy Germany as a nation state that can dominate Europe and start a third Continental war in a century (which was what the Allies were looking for as a solution), Balkanization does a great job of crushing German Nationalists for a generation. If the statelets become rich individually after a generation or two, the war-time generation is pretty much gone and rich small countries generally don't merge together.
the never "dominate europe again", never "start a continental war again" and "crush german nationalism" thing happened in real life, so i assume those were the goals back then - no balkanisation necessary (if you disregard the pre-war conquered parts, the now polish parts and the GDR for a time). for actual balkanisation there would have to be more reasons.
i bet that if it had been balkanized and the states became filthy rich british online newspapers would still be full with "who won the war really???" comments.
Caltangle only appears when things are slightly silly (like someone posting straight out of the box with bat-shit crazy conspiracies). When a long time member suddenly does what happened in this thread, I don't think its appropriate to have a tee-hee at the end.
Have no fear, the next nut is always right around the corner.
the never "dominate europe again", never "start a continental war again" and "crush german nationalism" thing happened in real life, so i assume those were the goals back then - no balkanisation necessary (if you disregard the pre-war conquered parts, the now polish parts and the GDR for a time). for actual balkanisation there would have to be more reasons.
i bet that if it had been balkanized and the states became filthy rich british online newspapers would still be full with "who won the war really???" comments.
Undoubted. Much as we see in the U.S. about Japan, especially back when Japan's economy was at its zenith and the U.S. was somewhat in the doldrums (Japanese billionaires were buying golf courses in LA "simply to be able to get the best Tee times" was a popular meme at the time).
It is also true that Germany was, to a degree Balkanized AND ethnically cleansed, as was mentioned up thread. Of course the Soviet occupation of East Germany was never really envisioned as being a 44 year long circumstance at Yalta or Casablanca, but the USSR tended to do a LOT of things that weren't exactly expected while everyone was in the Big Tent fighting the Reich.
Who was the mole? Harry White? Always enjoy a good game of find the NKVD/KGB spy.... they were so good.
Harry White should have swung. Slowly, painfully swung.
No such luck. He was called before HUAC, denied everything, went home, and died three days later of a convenient heart attack.
Alexander Vassiliev helped produce the final proof during the brief period when the ex-KGB archives were somewhat open.
I posted a similar AHC\PC\WI a while back, with a list of possibilities for further weakening Germany.
Realpolitik
Banned
The bastard had everything great that the USA had to offer, part of the top, and he offers his services to JOSEPH STALIN, of all people. We've gone far beyond stupid Eastern Establishment idealism/naivety here. Damn what it actually did for the "workers", who needed to be told what to do and pointed in the right direction, or how many reactionaries needed to be adjusted, if the pretty idealistic picture could be fulfilled.
I understand why a man like Richard Nixon was so angry at guys like Alger Hiss...
A slightly less dramtic solution owuld be a balkanization along the lines of the 4 'zones'
the french zone remains a puppet set of department ( apart from historic french territory which is incorporated back into Metropolitan France itself run by Paris to benefit Paris as whole
the British and American zones remain seperately administered and eventually become self governing dominions either for ever or to the point of post cold war reunification - even if economically and industrially they develop as per OTL they are still run by the UK and US ogvernments overall
the Soviet Zone /DDR proceeds as OTL
the french zone remains a puppet set of department ( apart from historic french territory which is incorporated back into Metropolitan France itself run by Paris to benefit Paris as whole
the British and American zones remain seperately administered and eventually become self governing dominions either for ever or to the point of post cold war reunification - even if economically and industrially they develop as per OTL they are still run by the UK and US ogvernments overall
the Soviet Zone /DDR proceeds as OTL
Peter Parker
Banned
There is no way the Allies can forever occupy Germany
The public wouldn't accept it in 2014 of almost 75 years of occupation.
Germany would be united again by 2000, if not 1990.
And she will be mad as HELL, but revenge would take time.
I so want to make this a timeline.
The public wouldn't accept it in 2014 of almost 75 years of occupation.
Germany would be united again by 2000, if not 1990.
And she will be mad as HELL, but revenge would take time.
I so want to make this a timeline.
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CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
Bavaria could probably be split off from the rest of the country without too much trouble. Keep the Eastern and Western parts split, and you've got 3 Germanys. Or you could split Germany into even more states (independent Rhineland, maybe?). A much easier route would be for the allies to prevent Germany from ever re-arming (although this would require friendlier relations between the US and USSR).
And even if Germany is united, industrialized, and well-armed, how exactly is it supposed to take revenge on the US, UK, Russia, and France, aka 4/5 of the UN Security Council?
You do know after the war we were taking away German factories, patents, taking people useful to post-war Germany who would be useful to us and on and on? We split the country apart as well along with the annexations. I could go on and on.
Germany was bankrupt and had nothing then Stalin comes knocking on Europe's door 'unexpectedly' for the U.S. and suddenly the U.S. needs West Germany to rebuild a large military to be the main land force defending continental Europe against Russia?
Has Germany paid back its WW1 debts? Yes, this decade.