AHC: Proto-Communism before the Industrial Revolution.

He probably sounds like the best candidate for this challenge. Can Communism work in a religious framework?

Sure. Proto-Communism worked very well amongst the early Christian Church (as depicted in Acts) as well as the early Islamic community. Different sects emerged from the Middle Ages until the modern era which have professed similar ideas.

Marx might have been against religion, but that doesn't religion that Religion and Communistic-style societies are anthema to one another.
 

SaucePlease

Banned
You're going to regret asking ;) Its short for "involuntarily celibate." Too keep it somewhat clean, it's an internet subculture of men who aren't having sex and blame it on women, feminism, some hypothetical alpha male named "Chad" who is getting all the women, and the unfairness of society. It's ... about as bad as you'd expect, and has inspired on a few mass shootings.

But that is all i will say on the matter, as it verges on the politics ban.
I don't see how that has anything to do with socialism/communism (unless you count women as a commodity).

Anyway, it is kind of a shame that most of the examples so far are about some type of violent revolution (which was Lenin's idea not Marx). I guess warfare does make for a more interesting timeline though.
 
I don't see how that has anything to do with socialism/communism (unless you count women as a commodity).

Anyway, it is kind of a shame that most of the examples so far are about some type of violent revolution (which was Lenin's idea not Marx). I guess warfare does make for a more interesting timeline though.
At first the Mazdakite revolution had royal sanction, and Mazdak got into favors from the Shahanshah Kavadh I, but the nobility rebelled and deposed Kavadh, that once he got back in the throne was quick to smack down Mazdak and his followers (the next Shah, Khosrow eventually executing Mazdak), have Kavadh be on a stronger position (maybe a victory over the Hephtalites, whom ironically got him into the throne after the nobles' rebellion) and the growth of the Mazdakite reforms could get some traction.
 
Both isn't perfect. Its mostly localized at village level, and there are differences between rich farmer and poor farmer. But most property held in common or by lineage.

I don't think no money and no government is possible. Even pre-bronze age had cowrie shell and tribal government.
If you look at what cowrie shell-type monies were used for, it's remarkably different from what we use money for today, more of a symbolic commodity for marking special occasions like marriages than anything else. I'm not sure that this should be considered money for the purpose of determining whether a society is communistic or not.
 
Don’t forget the Tondrakians of Armenia, an anti-feudal and anti-clerical sect of Christians who sought to create small peasant communities free from secular or church authority and live as early Christians did. I think they also fit the PoD in a radically emancipatory way.
 
Any preindustrial communism is likely to encounter the problem of large-scale social organisation. Most such societies would work quite well on a local level, but would have problems creating a cohesive front on a larger political level, which is what would be required to repel threats. In the end, they must find a solution to the problem of how to keep the monarch next door to bring heavily armoured cavalry against what is likely to be peasant infantry, given that a society without an aristocracy would not have a professional warrior class. Literacy is another problem: if it is a skill primarily possessed by the elites against which the revolt is directed, it is not going to be easy to create the type of organisation required to remedy this by creating a fighting force that is sustainable long-term (after, as opposed to during, a rebellion). If one would have a sufficiently large class of literate people who are also disenfranchised enough to feel that they would be better off throwing their lot in with peasant rebels rather than the elites, it might make a difference.

One way of aleviating some of these problems is through geographical isolation. However, it would still be quite a challenge to create a sustainable movement which combines peasants, apprentices and journeymen with no chance of becoming masters, "intellectuals" with no prospects in common avenues of advancement, and makes them work together to create a large-scale proto-communist society. Wanking the Diggers during the English Civil War might be a possibility, although it would require some skill to pull it off in a plausible-seeming timeline.
 
Marx himself talked about "Primitive Communism". Marx also suggests that society must go through various stages: 1) Primitive Communism; 2) Ancient (Slave-Based); 3) Feudal; 4) Capitalist; 5) Socialist; 6) Communist. Therefore from a Marxist perspective the idea of going to say Feudal to Communist is an impossibility. Obviously Marx may have been wrong, but the lack any examples suggests in this case he was not.

Well, IIRC Marx did not define communism in anything but the vague terms and, at least the Soviet ideology considered it as some kind of an abstraction (except for Khrushchev who made himself a laughingstock by declaring that it will be achieved within a lifetime of a current generation) so, as you remarked, the examples of even Marx-approved transition are lacking. Rather surprisingly, a lot of ideological effort and money had been spent on proving a possibility of jumping from feudalism to socialism (Soviet style). Of course, they failed in creation of something attractive but so did the Soviet system (which, of course, also came to the existence contrary to Marx theory).

Of course, it is an open question if socialism is a more advanced form than capitalism but this is rather irrelevant within framework of current discussion. So perhaps getting back to the Primitive Communism is the only option within the theory. As was already remarked, there were numerous attempts to build some primitive communist communities/societies but they all failed.

The utopia-style books of the pre-industrial period (by Campanella, More and, IIRC, there were few others) tended to involve some kind of a government (of course, the most wise and enlightened people, who would doubt) with rather scary powers like the right to define the marriage partners based upon the physical parameters, state’s control over bringing up the children and, of course, an absolute ideological control (art must be useful; an attitude shared both by the Soviets and Nazis).

The pbvious question for that type of the experiments is for how long the leadership remains dedicated to the ideals it preaches and not trying to use power to their own advantage.
 
Well, IIRC Marx did not define communism in anything but the vague terms and, at least the Soviet ideology considered it as some kind of an abstraction (except for Khrushchev who made himself a laughingstock by declaring that it will be achieved within a lifetime of a current generation) so, as you remarked, the examples of even Marx-approved transition are lacking. Rather surprisingly, a lot of ideological effort and money had been spent on proving a possibility of jumping from feudalism to socialism (Soviet style). Of course, they failed in creation of something attractive but so did the Soviet system (which, of course, also came to the existence contrary to Marx theory).

Of course, it is an open question if socialism is a more advanced form than capitalism but this is rather irrelevant within framework of current discussion. So perhaps getting back to the Primitive Communism is the only option within the theory. As was already remarked, there were numerous attempts to build some primitive communist communities/societies but they all failed.

The utopia-style books of the pre-industrial period (by Campanella, More and, IIRC, there were few others) tended to involve some kind of a government (of course, the most wise and enlightened people, who would doubt) with rather scary powers like the right to define the marriage partners based upon the physical parameters, state’s control over bringing up the children and, of course, an absolute ideological control (art must be useful; an attitude shared both by the Soviets and Nazis).

The pbvious question for that type of the experiments is for how long the leadership remains dedicated to the ideals it preaches and not trying to use power to their own advantage.


I agree with your statements here. I think it is also important to distinguish between societies and groups within societies. For example, many monastic orders in Western Europe live quite a communistic lifestyle. However, they interact with the broader "non-communist" society by selling goods and receiving donations in return for prayers. Therefore, its a bit difficult conceptualize them as "communist societies".
 
I agree with your statements here. I think it is also important to distinguish between societies and groups within societies. For example, many monastic orders in Western Europe live quite a communistic lifestyle. However, they interact with the broader "non-communist" society by selling goods and receiving donations in return for prayers. Therefore, its a bit difficult conceptualize them as "communist societies".

They were also supported pretty heavily by the wider Church and the local Lord's and in many cases the king or emperor. They were protected as well by the forces of the rest of the society they are in. So they may be close to communism but were never separate enough from the rest to count.
 
I agree with your statements here. I think it is also important to distinguish between societies and groups within societies. For example, many monastic orders in Western Europe live quite a communistic lifestyle. However, they interact with the broader "non-communist" society by selling goods and receiving donations in return for prayers. Therefore, its a bit difficult conceptualize them as "communist societies".

The donations are probably a keyword: can we introduce a non-Marxist definition “parasitic communism”? :)

Rabelais in one of his books depicted an ideal “community” free of any oppression and enforcement and even defined sum of a state-allocated income needed to support it. Don’t remember the exact number but it was made clearly (and probably intentionally) unrealistic.

In quite modern times Jules Verne in “500 millions begum” also described an ideal community (seemingly producing nothing but free of oppression, government, etc.). The only problem, again, is that it’s founder got, without even trying, 250 millions.

There were some analogies made between the Incas (as the ruling class) and communism/socialism for the elite: everything they wanted was provided to them (“to each according to his needs”) by the labor of the subdued tribes.
 
The donations are probably a keyword: can we introduce a non-Marxist definition “parasitic communism”? :)

Rabelais in one of his books depicted an ideal “community” free of any oppression and enforcement and even defined sum of a state-allocated income needed to support it. Don’t remember the exact number but it was made clearly (and probably intentionally) unrealistic.

In quite modern times Jules Verne in “500 millions begum” also described an ideal community (seemingly producing nothing but free of oppression, government, etc.). The only problem, again, is that it’s founder got, without even trying, 250 millions.

There were some analogies made between the Incas (as the ruling class) and communism/socialism for the elite: everything they wanted was provided to them (“to each according to his needs”) by the labor of the subdued tribes.

I will have to think about the notion of "parasitic communism". Obviously a key aspect of Capital is exploring how different ruling classes appropriate the surplus value created by the oppressed classes. Therefore, in the orthodox Marxism, rulers are always parasitic. The interesting point is that occasionally the ruling class (or in the case of monks) a subset of the ruling class practices communism amongst its members. The Homoioi in Lacademonian society (Spartans) provide a particularly interesting example. No money or even private property amongst the Homoioi facilitated by brutal repression of the Healots.
 
I will have to think about the notion of "parasitic communism". Obviously a key aspect of Capital is exploring how different ruling classes appropriate the surplus value created by the oppressed classes. Therefore, in the orthodox Marxism, rulers are always parasitic. The interesting point is that occasionally the ruling class (or in the case of monks) a subset of the ruling class practices communism amongst its members. The Homoioi in Lacademonian society (Spartans) provide a particularly interesting example. No money or even private property amongst the Homoioi facilitated by brutal repression of the Healots.

Rulers are always parasitic except for vaguely defined rule of the communist party when the Workers Paradise is achieved and even before that on the socialist stage. The professional communists are excluded from the parasitic classes even, as was the case with Marx, Engels and numerous others, they are not a part of the productive class, proletariat. IIRC, a loophole of “working intelligencia” was a later invention but anyway, the ruling communist elite was not a part of it.
 
The possibilities in my estimation, in the past ages, are as follows:

1. A steppe horde: This group, can often remove the necessity of "money" (as in coins or state defined currencies), governments, there is already common ownership of production which is divided up equally or by participation as loot or people are pastoralists and the land is not owned, etc... So, the Western Scythians for instance, could fulfill this role in the previously mentioned modes in their traditional homelands in the Pontic steppe. Other hordes could achieve this similarly in their own territories, assuming that communism does not prohibit raiding, pillaging and so forth. The issues with this venture, is that the steppe horde most likely will develop some sort of class structure due to the constant wars they generally partake in lead to different results and certain warriors gather greater and greater amounts of loot, leading to the rise of a noble-warrior class that command others. Further, the capture of slaves and loot, lead to the creation of class, and from what we know of steppe hordes and even the other pre-Roman Eurasian peoples north of Greece, they tended to love jewels, amber, gold, slaves and other trinkets that they adorned themselves with to an array rivaling the most stratified societies on the planet at the time. We also come across the issue that these steppe hordes is that they did possesses property, defined perhaps as personal property, but did not possesses property over the land. Due to the nature of this personal property, which is humans, horses, precious jewelry/stones, trophies and clothing, this is not a personal property that could lead to communism. The main allure though of this group, is unlike other options, these hordes can defend themselves perfectly well until the modern era and they have no conception of land ownership. 3/4

2. A Bandit confederation: This was a style of political organization that developed in several locations in history. The most famous example of this in my study, is the Sawad pirate-bandit confederation that ruled the swamplands of southern Iraq after the end of the Zanj rebellion and the Qarmatian menace. In this republic, we know that they did not really have a government other than sort of appointed commanders and imams, which were not wholly differentiated from others. These pirates for several decades held great power in the region and inflicted losses on both the Buyyid and Abbasid states before they were broken up over time by the later Buyyid and Saljuq regimes. This grouping is effective for the proto-communism in that it has a distaste for the general nobility, the ruling castes and the conception of working for other classes, thus they have a sort of class struggle mentality already (at least to a degree). Further, such pirate confederations do not support private ownership and things become communal via common sharing of loot and shared placement in class. Pirates and bandits however, in all cases that we know of when forming into states, continue to use currency and do not barter as steppe hordes or similar groups do. Rather, these conglomerates are tied to the economic system that requires them to gain loot to then use to purchase other items; it is not like the steppe hordes which looted in an effort to hoard these items as symbols of victory. Pirates and bandits also have an issue that their lifestyle and usage of currency leads to the creation of social classes by who can purchase more and or have the best cadre of fighters. This group often also exists on the margins of established empires and powers of sedentary states, should this sedentary empire end, the pirate/bandit confederation begins taking taxes in their name and the state reforms...So, 1/4-2/4

3. A Peasant Republic: A fan favorite among socialist thinkers, this is one where a class of peasants either exist primordially holding the lands they live/farm on or overthrow the elites who prior were over them. This situation is a sort of communal republic, peasants who meet for communal issues and have no currency, government, social classes and no private property over means of production. This group however, is less feasible due to its poor prospects for survival outside of high mountains, but this is unlikely due to the fact that no large agricultural society occurs in places that are so defensible that agriculture is poor. Regardless, as @lefthandhummingbird mentioned, it is difficult to consistently defend your culture against heavy cavalry and heavy infantry, with only light infantry and disorganized even zealous infantry. In the past, the conquests of powerful Mesopotamian states often came at the expense of small localized peoples who had villages and a raiding culture, these may have had no currency, private ownership and so forth, but were nonetheless inferior to the larger states in the region when it came to war making. The best way to solve the issue of weakness would be to have a sort of government control the resources and promote a highly disciplined military, similar to say the idealized Republic of Plato.

4. A Platonic ideal: The idea would be a state where there is a government of bureaucrats and an empire who held the position of divine entity and all land was owned by this entity and given out in usufruct to all the people. This ruler then due to some sort of custom or restraint, does not develop currency of their own and does not permit social classes. Some ideas for this sort of state would be perhaps in Egypt prior to large scale horse-camel domestication, pre-columbian California, or some sort of fertile island; all instances where the main defense is geography.
 
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