AHC: Protestant Spain

[Nanwe]

One of the biggest problems for Protestantism to spread in Spain (iirc there were two Lutheran tiny minorities in Seville and Valladolid but were quickly destroyed) was that the Spanish Church, thanks to the reforms of the Cardinal Ximenez Cisneros had by the time that Charles I/V arrived, gone through its own sort of Counter-Reformation.

Many of the ideas that were later applied by the Counter-Reformation were introduced in Spain in the late 15th, early 16th century so it's difficult to have Protestantism when the main grievances against Catholicism had been reduced by forcing monks and priests to less ridiculous practices as those in other places.

Obviously the use of the Spanish Church by the Crown (for example, until 1977, the Spanish Monarch had the right to name the Spanish bishops) as another element to ensure social, religious and political homogeneity and conformity with the political system makes very difficult for the Crown to change their policy. They had all the influence in and through the Church they could need.

Also, the spirit of the Reconquista ensured that the basis of the Spanish proto-national sentiment was not based on speaking a common language or hating x European country, but rather on being Christian, and in Spain, being Christian has always been (even today) been synonymous with being Catholic.

 

[ManintheField]

Not in Spain. Nor in Italy.

There was indeed Protestantism in Italy in the 16th century. However, the Catholic Church was very effective in destroying it before it became the force it did elsewhere in Germany and France.

I suspect something similar happened in Spain, although I don't know. It just makes sense: Prior to the rise of the religious wars of the latter half of the 16th century and after, Protestantism was more of a personal than political thing. Rather, it was a matter of church instead of secular politics.

 

[Matteo]

I did not mean there were none. I meant that they were so few that, given the other criteria I mentioned, there was no possibility for Spain to become protestant.

Same thing for orthodox Russia.

 

[MNP]

It took some 5 centuries before the majority of egyptians became muslim. And it did not happen in Spain in 5 centuries.

What ... ?

 

[B_Munro]

This thread is an abomination, like a non-neutral Switzerland. When supernatural hands split the sky and roll it back, revealing the awful face that is death to see, and the horrible, piercing trump is heard, and four horsemen of terrible mien sally forth, y'all are to blame.

This thread seems to be upsetting you. Why not read a nice, calming Islamic Iberia thread instead?

Bruce

 

[Matteo]

What ... ?

The religious conversion of a majority from christianism to islam.

 

[MNP]

The religious conversion of a majority from christianism to islam.

Uh, that happened in 2-3 centuries unless I'm missing something. It wasn't due to migration.

 

[Avitus]

Uh, that happened in 2-3 centuries unless I'm missing something. It wasn't due to migration.

The number of coptic christians in Egypt today is 10%, and it was 20% in the early 20th c, so taking 500 years doesn't sound that unlikely.

As for Spain, you really kinda need a totally different state. Spain can be considered in many ways to be the RC's first and most successful crusader state. From its inception it has been Catholic, so it very likely needs a different inception.

 

[MNP]

The number of coptic christians in Egypt today is 10%, and it was 20% in the early 20th c, so taking 500 years doesn't sound that unlikely.

As for Spain, you really kinda need a totally different state. Spain can be considered in many ways to be the RC's first and most successful crusader state. From its inception it has been Catholic, so it very likely needs a different inception.

Well yes but my point is that population of the peninsula was majority Muslim by AD 980 (less than 3 centuries) so I was wondering if I missed something. I think Egypt was something like 50% Christian around AD 1100.

I think you can do it with Hapsburgs but I agree with you that it would be far more likely with an earlier PoD. The earlier the better.

 

[Lleibi]

You need the Spanish church on board first and foremost; in fact, they should be the ones. And a rallying point, an offense that causes the cisma of the Spanish church.

It's not impossible because the power of the Vatican was much smaller earlier on, until the XII century, when the Vatican married itself to the large monastic orders that had become a true European network of power and wealth.

A favourite candidate to PoD of mine is the excommunication of Cresconius of Iria and Santiago, the warrior bishop.
He was excommunicated by the pope due to Cresconius using the title of "bishop of the apostolic see" (due to Santiago being the traditional burial place of apostle St. James), which would give it preeminence over the traditional metropolitan sees of Spain (Braga-Lugo and Toledo). The pope would have none of that, as he saw it a threat against his own power, saying that only Rome could claim the title of apostolic see, and excommunicated Cresconius.
Cresconius grew so afraid and contrite that he continued to use the title of bishop of the apostolic see till the end of his natural life, and the rest of bishops of Galicia-Leon (and by extension, of Castille, as they wouldn't accept their natural metropolitan of Toledo, being in muslim territory), continued to acknowledge his primacy.

This didn't produce anything in the end IOTL for several reasons:
-The Christian Kingdoms of western Spain, while unified by Ferdinand the Great, were not politically strong enough to actually wish to break up from Rome.
-There was no theological justification for a cisma, like the Eastern church had had a few years prior.
-Even if the apostolic nature of the see of Santiago was accepted, there was still conflict between the loyalties to the actual metropolitans (Braga-Lugo and Toledo) and to the Apostolic see.
-The issue didn't have continuity after Cresconius: The kingdoms of Galicia-Leon-Castille were split and re-united again under Alphonse VI, who was very much under the sway of Cluny, and made large donations to them. Under this king, the bishop of Santiago Diego Xelmirez renounced to the title of apostolic, taking instead the metropolitany from Merida (hence splitting Galicia-Leon from Portugal, which would remain under Braga's primacy).

 

[MNP]

-The issue didn't have continuity after Cresconius: The kingdoms of Galicia-Leon-Castille were split and re-united again under Alphonse VI, who was very much under the sway of Cluny, and made large donations to them. Under this king, the bishop of Santiago Diego Xelmirez renounced to the title of apostolic, taking instead the metropolitany from Merida (hence splitting Galicia-Leon from Portugal, which would remain under Braga's primacy).

I've read that a lot of changes to the church to bring it in line with Cluny were driven by his wife Constance of Burgundy. What if someone with more antipathy to Rome is selected?

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I dunno if Traditionalist-non-reformed Catholicism (an old form of it or something) would be accepted in this challenge. What if the Spanish Church became er 'more catholic than the Pope', a sort of Reformation and non reformation both.

 

[Lleibi]

I've read that a lot of changes to the church to bring it in line with Cluny were driven by his wife Constance of Burgundy. What if someone with more antipathy to Rome is selected?

What do you mean? selecting as head of Cluny someone less willing to work with Rome? I think the benedictines would be a lot less powerful, because i think it was the character of Hugh and his familiar connections what allowed him to build up that powerhouse. Also he was for a while a Pope-maker.

I believe the key here, to have a weak enough Vatican is to act before the ascent of Cluny. Which is what the Eastern Christians did.

Ubbergeek is right though. This is way out of the challenge. Sorry!

 

[IanBertram]

One way out might be for Islamic rule to cover the whole of Iberia and last longer so breaking the link with the Catholic Church. This alone would change European history so perhaps the reconquest might be by Protestant forces.

How and when is not something I have the knowledge to comment upon.

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

One way out might be for Islamic rule to cover the whole of Iberia and last longer so breaking the link with the Catholic Church. This alone would change European history so perhaps the reconquest might be by Protestant forces.

How and when is not something I have the knowledge to comment upon.

That alone would change European history so Martin Luther would very likely be butterflied away.

 

[Matteo]

One way out might be for Islamic rule to cover the whole of Iberia and last longer so breaking the link with the Catholic Church. This alone would change European history so perhaps the reconquest might be by Protestant forces.

How and when is not something I have the knowledge to comment upon.

And besides, it would not pave the way to a protestant Spain but to a muslim Spain.

I am sorry but this hypothesis of a protestant Spain, given Spain's history since the early 7th century and given geography is as impossible as the State of Israel turning roman catholic in the 1950's or England turning muslim.

 

[Will Kürlich Kerl]

One of the biggest problems for Protestantism to spread in Spain (iirc there were two Lutheran tiny minorities in Seville and Valladolid but were quickly destroyed) was that the Spanish Church, thanks to the reforms of the Cardinal Ximenez Cisneros had by the time that Charles I/V arrived, gone through its own sort of Counter-Reformation.

So, we need to butterfly away Jiménez de Cisneros before proceeding.

 

[Luciano]

I dunno if Traditionalist-non-reformed Catholicism (an old form of it or something) would be accepted in this challenge. What if the Spanish Church became er 'more catholic than the Pope', a sort of Reformation and non reformation both.

Well, you could have the pope adopting some reforms that do not amuse the spanish kings, like how a few churches broke off from the catholic church after Vatican 2, or something like the Old Believers in Russia. Or the Old Catholic Church.

I'm not sure what reform exactly would piss so much the spaniards, however.

 

[IanBertram]

I suggested a reconquest by Protestants, in other words after the Reformation. For that to happen you have to avoid a Catholic Spain in the first place. Much of Southern Spain was Muslim anyway for quite a while. The so-called reconquest appears to have been at least in part triggered by religious schisms in the Islamic world (actually very much a split between fundamentalists and the rest). If the larger part of Iberia was Muslim, what impact would that have on the rest of Europe. Would it really remove Martin Luther? Was he the only likely source of non-Catholic Christianity anyway?

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Aragon could go Protestant via the Waldensians and Cathars..