AHC: Protestant Spain

It may seem ASB, but is there anyway to get the most catholic coutry in Europe other then Italy to go Protestant? What factors were present in Germany and not in Spain that allowed the former to have a reformation?
 
I guess I'll state the obvious: a military frontier with the Muslims. Have Isabella be less of a zealot as well, she was always very concerned with right religion. Prevent the establishment of the inquisition as well, since it was in the hands of the monarchy so much it became a tool to increase state power which was increasingly bound up in making the Holy in the HRE mean something.
 
Have Spain break with the Pope to create a "national Catholic" church that then slowly diverges from Catholic norms.

Of course, Spain being Spain at this time, such a church might be more Catholic than the main Catholic Church.
 
Have Spain break with the Pope to create a "national Catholic" church that then slowly diverges from Catholic norms.

Of course, Spain being Spain at this time, such a church might be more Catholic than the main Catholic Church.

This, though you might see some Caesaropapism in such an arrangement, somewhat akin to Henry VIII's vision of an English Church.
 
This, though you might see some Caesaropapism in such an arrangement, somewhat akin to Henry VIII's vision of an English Church.

Henry's Anglicanism was Catholicism with him as the head of the church and not the Pope.

My scenario would spawn something similar, only given the different intellectual climate in Spain (no Reformers to co-opt, IIRC), it wouldn't "Protestantify" as OTL Anglicanism did, especially under Edward VI.
 
You could have France go Protestant, than have a domino effect from there. Franco-Spanish Union, or just Spain liberalizing due to marriage or increased influence from France from any number of ways.

Sorry, I know this is Franco-centric but I think France is much easier to turn Protestant and maybe Spain could follow suit.
 

birdboy2000

Banned
The corruption of the Borgia popes alienated everyone, and militancy was historically far from a certain barrier to protestantism: the Teutonic Knights also had a crusading heritage, but turned into Prussia anyway. Perhaps if before Luther Spain winds up in a nasty enough dispute with the Papal States (say over Naples), and gets a bishop willing to preach and a monarch angry enough to listen, it could spark its own reformation, although it'd certainly look very different in some regards - the Spanish Inquisition being used on Catholics, for instance.
 
Things that helped catholicism in Spain:
- The Inquisition rooting out anything remotly heretic
- The threat by the Ottoman & Barbary Pirate fleets
- Prestige through New World Conquests and Reconquisita

Things that helped Protestantism in Germany that were absent in Spain:
- Highly corrupt Prince Bishops (younger sons of nobility that were in for the power and the wealth and didn't even pretend to take their job serious)
- massive simony (selling of church positions, result of above)
- Semi independent Princes that gave shelter to reformers.
- High population density resulting in peasant unrest.

The best chance for Spain to go protestant might be like this:
The inquisition is never made that powerful, so controversial theological discussions remain possible in the Spanish Church. Oppostion to papal abuses and corruption arrises among the spanish monastic orders (especially the poor and/or radical orders were centers of this OTL, think of Savonarola or Luther and monastic orders were very strong in Spain). They want the chruch to be more moraly rigide and give up part of its wealth. Their theology is something remotely calvinist that developed out of St. Augustines views on predestination.
The King finally comes to support them, either out of true conviction or to solve his financial proplems by taking over church possesions.
This leads to an unique spanish form of protestantism, that resembles Anglicanism but keeps more catholic forms & traditions (pilgrimages, religious orders, rosaries, ...)
 
I like that scenario.

And if you think about it, a Protestant Spain may actually be more doctrinally conservative compared to the RCC of its time.
 
Things that helped catholicism in Spain:
- The Inquisition rooting out anything remotly heretic
- The threat by the Ottoman & Barbary Pirate fleets
- Prestige through New World Conquests and Reconquisita

You're missing the number 1 reason that helped Catholicism in Spain, here:

- Charles I (V of the HRE) was paranoid about the spread of Protestantism, and banned all Spanish citizens from studying in foreign universities, as well as foreign lecturers from teaching in Spain. He also had the borders closed down so that anyone found carrying books would have them checked - and if they were Protestant, the books would be burned and the carrier would be sent to the Inquisition. Basically, Spain absolutely prevented the spread of Protestantism by denying its population access to Protestant ideas in the first place. How is a religious reformation supposed to spread if you can't get (or train) theologians in the country? The Spanish populace therefore had no way of being instructed in the Protestant faith and therefore felt no urge to convert.

There were a couple of isolated cases where a few hundred students managed to get hold of a book, but on the whole Charles was wildly successful in his endeavours, and when those students got hold of books, they were met with armed resistance and were executed by the Inquisition (again). Pretty soon there was no-one in Spain left alive who had ever read a Protestant book.
 
The corruption of the Borgia popes alienated everyone, and militancy was historically far from a certain barrier to protestantism: the Teutonic Knights also had a crusading heritage, but turned into Prussia anyway. Perhaps if before Luther Spain winds up in a nasty enough dispute with the Papal States (say over Naples), and gets a bishop willing to preach and a monarch angry enough to listen, it could spark its own reformation, although it'd certainly look very different in some regards - the Spanish Inquisition being used on Catholics, for instance.
There was historically a difference between thought process in dealing with Pagans or other branches of Christianity (Rus Orthodox) than Muslims. Look at the Northern Crusades v. the Levantine. So too the Teutonic knights were eventually destroyed as a political force by fellow Catholics.
 
I'd say Spain doesn't unite scenario has possibilites but also the Pope picks a fight with Spanish Inquisition therego threatens royyal power and alienates.
 
It may seem ASB, but is there anyway to get the most catholic coutry in Europe other then Italy to go Protestant? What factors were present in Germany and not in Spain that allowed the former to have a reformation?

What if you have different Reformation where the reformers end up capturing the Church, or the Church at least makes significant concessions on a number of subjects? Perhaps Spain would then lead the way in reactionary 'protest'
 
Just one name: Erasmus.
He had a lot of disciples and supporters in Spain, like Juan Luís Vives.

And don't forget the whole New World thing. It was plenty of fervent monks and missionaries like Quiroga, Las Casas, and the like, who felt the time was come for the Rovation of the Church (sometimes with Joachimite undertones).
Even St. Ignace might lean toward a non-Catholic approach given the right conditions.
In the end, Spain was massively invested by spiritual forces, partly unleashed by the Reconquista and the Conquista, that could take the path of a particular brand of Reformation under some cirmustances.
Charles was strongly anti-protestant but he had also many problems with the Papacy. He got Rome sacked, remember?
 
That was an accident.

Yes, but still Charles was not exactly friendly to the Pope at that point.
Well, I know he felt like the Defender of the Catholic Faith, but I still think that Spain could have her Reformation going with an adequate PoD.
 
Yes, but still Charles was not exactly friendly to the Pope at that point.
Well, I know he felt like the Defender of the Catholic Faith, but I still think that Spain could have her Reformation going with an adequate PoD.
But that would still leave her Catholic. We need a Spain that has broken with the church in Rome which I think has to happen before Charles though I like your point about the forces unleashed by the New World could take a different path. I don't see how you have a Reconquista in before the Ottomans without Catholicism--but I'd want to here more about this as it sounds potentially interesting.
 
But that would still leave her Catholic. We need a Spain that has broken with the church in Rome which I think has to happen before Charles though I like your point about the forces unleashed by the New World could take a different path. I don't see how you have a Reconquista in before the Ottomans without Catholicism--but I'd want to here more about this as it sounds potentially interesting.

Sorry, I fail to understand your question. Reconquista was over in the Iberian peninsula before Reformation started. I was just saying that it left behind significant religious fervour.
 
I think this would require the Spanish not gaining international dominance, or at least remaining weaker than they were in OTL. Without this, the ability to intervene in Papal affairs in Italy would be weakened which would give more chance of a major schism being able to form between the Church in Spain and the Church in Rome.
I'm not an expert but I have wondered what the effects would be on the world with a Protestant Spain :)
 
Sorry, I fail to understand your question. Reconquista was over in the Iberian peninsula before Reformation started. I was just saying that it left behind significant religious fervour.
I think the forces unleashed by the Reconquista after it was completed are necessarily highly orthodox Roman Catholic. If you change the Reconquista you might change what forces are unleashed but if you delay the Reconquista then it's possible it never finishes because of the Ottomans helping Granada or no Isabella. If you make an earlier Reconquista completion you might change the forces unleashed but then it would be too early for a Reformation.

However the forces unleashed by the Conquista of the New World might take things in a different direction and I'm interested in hearing more of your thoughts on that.
 
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