AHC: Prevent the US from expanding to the West Coast

Or even beyond the Mississippi River, for that matter...

Closest thing I can come up with is the British providing weaponry/supplies to the Native Americans and/or multiple tribes forming an alliance to fight the colonists more effectively...

Also, how would the world look today had this been the case?
 
Well, let me ask: Do you intend for the US to remain intact, or for it to be split up? If it's the latter, you might able to do that if you get an early split. If it's the former, that's incredibly difficult, as the population pressure westwards was quite large.

If it's the latter, you might have an extremely successful War of 1812 go all the way for the British, and they might annex some of the Northwest territory. Even then, there is a sizable American population that would have to be displaced. (And one which would be growing faster than the Natives)

I guess you could have the Louisiana Purchase not go through, there will still be settlers moving westward (and quickly swamping the original natives in population). I guess you could have Great Britain try to intervene against the US earlier in the Napoleonic wars to prevent them from moving into Spanish/French territory, which seems to be a conflict of interests.

As for the world today? Well, butterflies, man. Butterflies.
 
American expansion to the Pacific is not inevitable at all. Several things had to happen to accomplish that:

1. The United States gets all the territory it got IOTL from the War of Independence. While I don't there there was much change of the UK preventing the formation of an independent US, if they had done better they could have kept more than Canada and Florida, leaving the US in less of a powerful position.

2. No Louisiana purchase

3. No war with Mexico or the US loses the war with Mexico

4. The American get beat to the Pacific Northwest by any of the UK, Russia, or Mexico. Just having Russia move onto the West Coast in a big way might be enough.

In a world where an independent Mexico gets its act together, it will wind up as the dominant power in North America, not the US.

The Americans could also succeed in the War of 1812, and succeed in conquering Canada. They could then focus on settling those new territories and leaving California to the Mexicans and the Pacific Northwest to the British or Russians. This could also butterfly into earlier tensions between the southern and the northern states.

The US also doesn't necessarily walk across the Mississippi in the event of no Louisiana Purchase if either Britain takes New Orleans, or a stronger Mexico establishes itself there.
 
Or even beyond the Mississippi River, for that matter...

Closest thing I can come up with is the British providing weaponry/supplies to the Native Americans and/or multiple tribes forming an alliance to fight the colonists more effectively...

Also, how would the world look today had this been the case?

Well, I can say that the United States never would have become the superpower it is today.....maybe a great power, but nothing more.

Well, let me ask: Do you intend for the US to remain intact, or for it to be split up? If it's the latter, you might able to do that if you get an early split. If it's the former, that's incredibly difficult, as the population pressure westwards was quite large.

Agreed with this.

If it's the latter, you might have an extremely successful War of 1812 go all the way for the British, and they might annex some of the Northwest territory. Even then, there is a sizable American population that would have to be displaced. (And one which would be growing faster than the Natives)

I can see the Brits taking *Wisconsin and *Michigan, possibly, but probably not much further than that without just plain shitty

I guess you could have the Louisiana Purchase not go through, there will still be settlers moving westward (and quickly swamping the original natives in population). I guess you could have Great Britain try to intervene against the US earlier in the Napoleonic wars to prevent them from moving into Spanish/French territory, which seems to be a conflict of interests.

Perhaps so-I can definitely see a new country or two forming around Louisiana, though.

As for the world today? Well, butterflies, man. Butterflies.

That much is true, I think.

American expansion to the Pacific is not inevitable at all. Several things had to happen to accomplish that:

I'll respond to each point individually.

1. The United States gets all the territory it got IOTL from the War of Independence. While I don't there there was much change of the UK preventing the formation of an independent US, if they had done better they could have kept more than Canada and Florida, leaving the US in less of a powerful position.

If the British manage to keep more than half of their territory in the colonies, I can see that-however, though, I would add that the U.S. didn't really need the states south of the old Virginia-N. Carolina borderline, and, if you look at Glen's classic Dominion of Southern America TL, the U.S. is able to expand to the Pacific Coast without that many problems.

2. No Louisiana purchase

That could certainly happen, yes. But what if France got in a war with the U.S., or so many settlers came that the French came to feel that had no choice but to sign it over?

3. No war with Mexico or the US loses the war with Mexico

This is kinda doubtful, TBH. There had been issues prior to 1846 and having Clay in place of Polk likely wouldn't have changed all that much-Clay was anti-war, yes, but not staunchly so, and after the incidents in California, I doubt he would have left that much alone. And in spite of what appears to be a fairly popular belief, at least in some circles, Polk didn't engineer the Mexican-American war out of whole brick; he had only ever focused on Texas and the Oregon Country-without the issues surrounding settlers in California, he probably wouldn't have given the Southwest even a second thought.

4. The American get beat to the Pacific Northwest by any of the UK, Russia, or Mexico. Just having Russia move onto the West Coast in a big way might be enough.

The U.K. *might* expand south to the 42nd parellel, depending on the circumstances, but IOTL, Mexico wasn't all that interested in the Oregon Country and Russia's being able to expand beyond Alaska would have been rather implausible without someone outright offering the territory to them for a price or winning it in a war somehow.....both of which are possible but definitely unlikely.

In a world where an independent Mexico gets its act together, it will wind up as the dominant power in North America, not the US.

It very well could-but you might even have to butterfly Iturbide for this-you'll certainly need a different Santa Anna, if he even comes to power at all; closest thing I can think of to this would be something like the Mexico from For Want of a Nail, but without Andrew Jackson.

The Americans could also succeed in the War of 1812, and succeed in conquering Canada. They could then focus on settling those new territories and leaving California to the Mexicans and the Pacific Northwest to the British or Russians. This could also butterfly into earlier tensions between the southern and the northern states.

They very well could be able to conquer Canada, and while I can see the Americans ITTL leaving California, and even Tejas/Texas alone(unless Mexico goes a bit stir crazy), why wouldn't they just go for the *Northwest?

The US also doesn't necessarily walk across the Mississippi in the event of no Louisiana Purchase if either Britain takes New Orleans, or a stronger Mexico establishes itself there.

I can see Mexico possibly annexing the southernmost bits of Louisiana, but why would Britain want just New Orleans, necessarily?
 
Moreover, how could Russia even afford to colonize the entire Pacific Northwest in numbers large enough to integrate it into the country? That's part of the reason that Alaska was sold so cheaply IOTL. They feared that the US, which was doing everything as possible to dominate the continent, would simply annex their possessions. That discussion began in the 1850's, when the US was doing this without the Mexican cession. I believe that, if the Russians colonized Oregon as they did Alaska, the similar fate would meet it: the colony wasn't useful enough, Britain is a larger enemy than the US, and it would be better to sell the colony for the benefit of Russia proper rather than risk losing it in a war while they are distracted.

And, remember, the only part of Louisiana that the US initially desired was New Orleans; it's not unlikely that they would purchase just the City and the surrounding land... but how to access the rest of Louisiana sans New Orleans?
 
You need to a) Slow down US expansion by adding more internal problems/wars with external forces and b) establish someone else in force on the pacific before they get there.

The second bit is the hard bit, really.

A lousiana as a brazil type independent french colony of royalists/republicans in exile?
 
American expansion to the Pacific is not inevitable at all. Several things had to happen to accomplish that:

2. No Louisiana purchase

4. The American get beat to the Pacific Northwest by any of the UK, Russia, or Mexico. Just having Russia move onto the West Coast in a big way might be enough.

In a world where an independent Mexico gets its act together, it will wind up as the dominant power in North America, not the US.

The Americans could also succeed in the War of 1812, and succeed in conquering Canada. They could then focus on settling those new territories and leaving California to the Mexicans and the Pacific Northwest to the British or Russians. This could also butterfly into earlier tensions between the southern and the northern states.

I must say, this is a much more interesting scenario for a US-TL than 90% of the stuff I've seen around there. United States of North America and Canada, a greater Mexico and Russian Oregon, damn, count me in! :cool:
 
How plausible is an early, permanent divide in the Union? That could see the major colonial powers exploit whatever the aftermath is, and keep *USA from pushing as far West as it did.
 
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