This. There were no death camps on 3 September 1939, when UK and France declared war. Germany with different ideology invading Poland would cause similar reaction. WW2 was not fought over Holocaust.
AHC prevent the Second World War
- Thread starter Marklin
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This. There were no death camps on 3 September 1939, when UK and France declared war. Germany with different ideology invading Poland would cause similar reaction. WW2 was not fought over Holocaust.
Garrison
Donor
All you are doing is diminishing the role of Hitler and the Nazis. WWII would not have happened without Hitler, it is impossible to imagine any other government taking such reckless chances, whatever their desires might have been. the vast global war that started in 1939 in fact happened after Germany had achieved almost the entirety of what you listed and even most of those inside the Nazi government were in favour of just taking their gains and focusing on rebuilding the German economy. The war in 1939 had nothing to do with Versailles or the stated aims of other German nationalists, it had to do with Hitler wanting war and believing that the window of opportunity for German victory was closing. The British, the French, the Soviets and the majority of people in Germany didn't want a war, but their opinions didn't count in the face of Hitler's grand ambitions.
Garrison
Donor
Which no one has mentioned as it happens. Again war in in 1939 happened because Hitler wanted it and it escalated into a global war because Hitler kept doubling down. And please don't tell me you are implying that the British and the French were responsible for the war.
France backed by Britain opposes remilitarisation of the Rhineland. Hitler's ambitions are shown to be empty boasting, but it also serves as a wake up call to neighbouring countries that they need to watch out. At the same time, it gives British and French leaders confidence to stand up to German infringements.
The rise of Hitler and the Nazis was a cause in WW2 starting but not the only one, so I guess even if we take the Nazi Party out of the picture, something else would've made something akin to it to break out (although not similar to OTL).
Garrison
Donor
This is the thing, without Hitler and the Nazis there is no driving force to start a world war. Sure there might be some scale conflicts but its only Hitler's ideology and reckless gambling that creates something recognizable as WW2.
honestly, this scenario is quite easy. make Versailles harsher. do what the French wanted to do in the first place. break Germany up into little pieces and kick them while they're down. make sure they dont rise again. make the Americans have less say in Versailles, and the British more willing to force much higher reparations on the Germans. Also, make the British and French NOT bail out the Germans at all in the 20's, or the 30's, and do what the Germans did the the Belgians and French. take their industry and use it to fix their own countries.
Even without the Nazis rising, there's still other problems: the Treaty of Versailles, the League of Nations, Japanese expansionism, and a large etc. WW2 rose out of the ramifications and consequences that WW1 left, not just the Nazis and Hitler taking power (a new world war might break out in a different way than OTL essentially, though I'm not sure what might trigger it).
Garrison
Donor
The ToV had been largely reversed before 1939, the LoN while it had issues was not a casus belli for anyone one. Japanese expansionism might precipitate some sort of conflict but if the colonial powers aren't occupied/distracted it won't get far. The reality was that some authoritarian party may well take control in Germany in response to the economic crash but the war of 1939 had nothing to do with Germany's economic situation, strategic threats, or the ToV, it had to do with Hitler wanting war, I am not sure why this seems such a controversial viewpoint. There was zero enthusiasm in Germany for war and the military were deeply anxious about getting into a fight with Britain and France, conversely the British and the French were convinced another war would be ruinous for them, and they were right.
That's just teleology. WW2 wasn't the necessary consequence of the aftermath of WW1. It was a project for which the Nazis and the German elites pushed in a coordinated way. Germany could have the corridor and even Anschluss without getting into a war with the UK and France. It already ended the ToV without any fighting.
Germany can't have corridor without fight, even if it is just Germany vs Poland. But such war won't be limited-Germany would need to crush Poland, so it would cease to exist as independent state. That would be massive shift in balance of power, that would not be ignored, and Germany would need something like Ribbentrop-Molotov pact, otherwise Soviet Union would feel threatened by expansion of German sphere of influence and would seek for alliance with France.
KAPD led _Sozialistische Arbeiterrepublik in Deutschland_ ontop of the already latent RSDLP(b) + RSDLP(m) hards + SR (lefts) + anarchists (rural) in the RSFSR.
Would it work if someone else rises to power but not Hitler and then this alternate leader decides forcus to Polish Corridor instead Sudeteland and then manage to pressure Poland give up the place like Hitler did with Sdetelands in OTL?
Unless he has mind control abilities-no way. Only pressure, that would work is military invasion.
No Hitler almost certainly means no insane ideology about Lebensraum, Destiny and and ubermenschen. Remilitarisation of the Rhineland is credible, as is war over the Polish corridor, but full on attack on Poland and Lebensraum-driven Barbarossa and the need to neutralise France are likely ruled out.
There can't be war over corridor without attack on Poland as it was part of Poland and Poles kept bulk of their forces in corridor.
And Polish-German border was almost 2000 kilometers long, no way fighting is going to be limited to corridor.
How about greater integration of economies all major European powers post 1918
More US involvement in post war Europe as a neutral buffer force in Rhineland between France and Germany
German militaries are allowed to expand but directed more against Soviets along with the poles ( Poland is coerced to give up more land to Germans in the east in exchange for this )
Maybe divide Germany up into 3 states as well all of them with strong military but staunchly anti communist
cut France to size and limit it’s ambitions in Europe ( to balance Balkanization of Germany ) probably start with US asking France to support its buffer force as it guarantees its security against the Germans ( far better than maginot line plus it’s dependent on French and German behaving and getting along )
US makes UK pay a lot more post ww1 if it cannot pay then maybe give some modern warships to USN
Make Kaiser a reviled character amongst Germans and discourage unity of German states but make them economically prosperous individually
Revive royal titles of individual Germany states and revive their petty rivalries
Basically USA makes its clear its the biggest European power after the war and it will go to great lengths to ensure its dominance even if it means forcing its Allies to grudgingly accept its dominant status in Europe on the flip side UK France are free to do what they want in their empires
ww2 is still certainly possible even without expansionist japan and nazi Germany it just might look very different. I would argue real 1st and 2nd wars were seven yrs war and Napoleonic wars though
More US involvement in post war Europe as a neutral buffer force in Rhineland between France and Germany
German militaries are allowed to expand but directed more against Soviets along with the poles ( Poland is coerced to give up more land to Germans in the east in exchange for this )
Maybe divide Germany up into 3 states as well all of them with strong military but staunchly anti communist
cut France to size and limit it’s ambitions in Europe ( to balance Balkanization of Germany ) probably start with US asking France to support its buffer force as it guarantees its security against the Germans ( far better than maginot line plus it’s dependent on French and German behaving and getting along )
US makes UK pay a lot more post ww1 if it cannot pay then maybe give some modern warships to USN
Make Kaiser a reviled character amongst Germans and discourage unity of German states but make them economically prosperous individually
Revive royal titles of individual Germany states and revive their petty rivalries
Basically USA makes its clear its the biggest European power after the war and it will go to great lengths to ensure its dominance even if it means forcing its Allies to grudgingly accept its dominant status in Europe on the flip side UK France are free to do what they want in their empires
ww2 is still certainly possible even without expansionist japan and nazi Germany it just might look very different. I would argue real 1st and 2nd wars were seven yrs war and Napoleonic wars though
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