AHC:Prevent European Imperialism in South East Asia

Disagreed on the Ottoman bit. The Ottomans didn't do anything until 1527 (top of my head) and Malacca had been taken by 1511.

However maybe a more successful Mamluk fleet in 1508? Sure their success was a bit outlandish thanks to bonkers Portuguese leadership but they could have done more if they hadn't taken a year to get there or if the mamluks had been more committed.

A popular revolt in Malacca would have helped possibly. I was reading a letter from an indigenous administrator about how the Portuguese were ruining the place and how they were mistreating their allies. Plus the king was still there and there was a lot of piracy.
The loss of Malacca could lead to a return of a fidalgos type of presence, basically just piracy and no "colonisation"

We also have to remember how ridiculously tiny and insignificant the European presence was until at least 1750. They had any clout because they were of good use to a good portion of the locals.
Same until 1930 actually, you cannot govern a country permanently in revolt unless you're making it a settler colony and swamp local population, but SEA could not be a European settler colony, not until quinine and even then, it was fairly unpleasant

The First Ottoman-Portuguese Conflict had been on the Med in 1481, the Ottomans also had sent some support to Diu and Goa during their conquests. The Mamluk idea is also a good one but I don't think that they the naval power to fight a long war.

I don't think, and this is just an opinion, that a popular Malacca revolt would be good. If they revolt I imagine that the Governor of Malacca would be placed under the control of the Viceroy of India and the Viceroy would transform Malacca into a statement against revolt, long story short unless Malacca receives much aid from their neighbors the city is going to receive the "Portuguese Treatment" and this would also had another unfortunate effect, OTL SEAsia was of little interest to the Crown but if they give much trouble Lisbon will take notice of them and no doubt that the Viceroy would receive orders, and resources, to capture key positions to ensure naval control of the Area.
 
Going to be hard to get the Europeans to stop having an interested. What you can do is try and get some of the states strong enough to provide trade and keep away anyone who tries to force a monopoly, such as when the Dutch attempted botanical genocide to make all spices come from only a few islands. Well, certain spices. Anyways, I read the Portuguese began their piracy because they only got around the Cape with s bunch of baubles and bells, which surprisingly didn't meet fetch high prices amongst the advanced countries in Asia and Africa.

Anyways, you need to find a way to curb companies, as they often were driving forces. I believe they bought off many politicians in Britain and the Netherlands with some of the lucre they acquired. Heck, they were often reasons why the countries moved into Africa, as companies and traders demanded help to protect or expand investments, leading to some profitable colonies for plantation owners but not for the government. But yah, back to ideas. While acquiring spices and luxury goods form Africa and the Americas to trade with the Indians, Chinese, and Southeast Asians might be helpful, working on the transit trade might be more profitable. The Dutch kept to the humiliating trade with Japan, which they sometimes spoke amongst themselves as dropping due to how the Japanese wouldn't even let the Dutch keep items they brought to sell, partially as it brought them goods to sell to the Chinese, which they then used the profit of to by tea and porcelain to ship to Europe.

Also, could you define Southeast Asia by your definition? Are you thinking Vietnam, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, plus the Malay peninsula, are you including the East Indias, the Phillipines, etc? On a side not, to get rid of interest in Southeast Asia, you need there to be no East Asia, or Spice Islands. At the least.

It includes Maritime South East Asia aka Malay Archipelago..

The existence of the Majapahit empire is one of the reasons why Nusa Tengarra and Northern Philippines were basically vulnerable to european occupation - the areas conquered by the portuguese and spanish that used to be hindu(hindu/pagan) are now christian either protestant or catholic, Majapahit is one of the factors that blocked the initial advance of islam to these areas for centuries due to hindu revival, Bali was basically one of the few hindu areas that persisted the colonization campaign because the dutch got them before the portuguese whipped their magic on them..
 
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...unless Malacca receives much aid from their neighbors the city is going to receive the "Portuguese Treatment" and this would also had another unfortunate effect, OTL SEAsia was of little interest to the Crown but if they give much trouble Lisbon will take notice of them and no doubt that the Viceroy would receive orders, and resources, to capture key positions to ensure naval control of the Area.
You make a good point. I would say it depends on who's in charge at the time. Some might use that to show that building fortresses all over the place was a bad idea, like in Anjediva.
It is very far away from the base of power in Goa. On top of that, if Malacca gets the Calicut treatment, there won't be any traders there. I was reading an account saying the trade had been cut to a tenth of what it was on the 1511-1520 period. And that's without revolt and bombardment!

the areas conquered by the portuguese and spanish that used to be hindu(hindu/pagan) are now christian either protestant or catholic, Majapahit is one of the factors that blocked the initial advance of islam to these areas for centuries due to hindu revival, Bali was basically one of the few hindu areas that persisted the colonization campaign because the dutch got them before the portuguese whipped their magic on them..
What are you on about? The Portuguese never ventured much in the East Indies. They had some trading post with maybe a hundred feverish Portuguese but that was it south of Macau and East of Goa

The little successes they might have had was through the destabilisation brought by the lack of an hegemon (Chinese in 1400-1450) and the wave of islamic conversion.

I would say you're vastly overestimating the role of the Portuguese. They were important because they lead the way but had little colonisation effort themselves
 

Vuru

Banned
As an amateur History reader, I despise the colonial borders and name changes that the Europeans imposed in South East Asia as well as the colonial abuses and genocides.., how do we stop the Europeans from getting interested in South East Asia completely, this includes the Portuguese and the Spanish.

It would be better if you got rid of UN's autismal adherence to administrative borders in the colonies, insisting countries that get independence have those trash tier borders (which were often based from borders of polities that were feudal trash, resulting in problems later on) they did
 
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You make a good point. I would say it depends on who's in charge at the time. Some might use that to show that building fortresses all over the place was a bad idea, like in Anjediva.
It is very far away from the base of power in Goa. On top of that, if Malacca gets the Calicut treatment, there won't be any traders there. I was reading an account saying the trade had been cut to a tenth of what it was on the 1511-1520 period. And that's without revolt and bombardment!

You are very correct on your assessment of trade but the object of the enclaves wound't be trade but to act as forward posts to protect the Portuguese traders/pirates on the area, basically the same they did in Arabia and East Africa, several fortresses to project strength. For a man as rich as the King of Portugal the expenses wouldn't be a problem even if there wouldn't be any economic benefit.
 
You are very correct on your assessment of trade but the object of the enclaves wound't be trade but to act as forward posts to protect the Portuguese traders/pirates on the area, basically the same they did in Arabia and East Africa, several fortresses to project strength. For a man as rich as the King of Portugal the expenses wouldn't be a problem even if there wouldn't be any economic benefit.
Except the fortresses in East Africa had, at least initially an economic point, mainly the Swahili trade and Zimbabwe gold.

Anyway, I think we're derailing the thread a bit here ;)

My point would be that official Portuguese presence in that region would be quite small
 
Except the fortresses in East Africa had, at least initially an economic point, mainly the Swahili trade and Zimbabwe gold.

Anyway, I think we're derailing the thread a bit here ;)

My point would be that official Portuguese presence in that region would be quite small

We are right better to go back to SEA :).

Honestly the area had very little interest to Lisbon, other than the Spice Islands but even them weren't considered vital to the Crowns interests. Keeping Portugal and Spain out is fairly easy, both had areas with more interest, keeping the French, Dutch and English may be the problem.
 
What are you on about? The Portuguese never ventured much in the East Indies. They had some trading post with maybe a hundred feverish Portuguese but that was it south of Macau and East of Goa

The little successes they might have had was through the destabilisation brought by the lack of an hegemon (Chinese in 1400-1450) and the wave of islamic conversion.

I would say you're vastly overestimating the role of the Portuguese. They were important because they lead the way but had little colonisation effort themselves

The portuguese and the Spanish were the ones that converted the Christian population in Maritime South East Asia which used to be hindu, buddhist and other pagan religions, they even converted populations of the areas that they did not recognize as parts of their colonies..
 
We are right better to go back to SEA :).

Honestly the area had very little interest to Lisbon, other than the Spice Islands but even them weren't considered vital to the Crowns interests. Keeping Portugal and Spain out is fairly easy, both had areas with more interest, keeping the French, Dutch and English may be the problem.
I believe we can distinguish four phases of Imperialism

# 1498-1600 - Iberian Imperialism. Not much presence, very trade oriented. Can be violent but is fairly limited. It centers mostly on India
# 1600-1750 - The Great Companies. Way more countries involved, focuses on SEA and generally shifts the center from the Oman Sea and the Pacific to the Benghal Golf
# 1750-1860 - Some consolidation (VOC/EIB) but mostly a disengagement (due to Napoleonic wars?)
# 1860-1954 - The colonisation era

It's really the second phase that is crucial. The key to that is the success of the VOC. If the VOC was less successful, European presence in the area would be much more fractured. Maybe the English hold on better in their factorie or the French try their hand there instead of India?

The portuguese and the Spanish were the ones that converted the Christian population in Maritime South East Asia which used to be hindu, buddhist and other pagan religions, they even converted populations of the areas that they did not recognize as parts of their colonies..
There were missionary but nobody was forced to convert outside of the colonies. And the population of maritime SEA were islamicised before anything else. That's why Indonesia is a majority Muslim country.
Champa was also hindu before its conversion. Same with the Philippines, or Benghal.

Christian conversion was extremely limited and we actually have a lot of instances of Christians converting to Islam, especially in the early years...

Do you have any proof to your claims?
 
I believe we can distinguish four phases of Imperialism

# 1498-1600 - Iberian Imperialism. Not much presence, very trade oriented. Can be violent but is fairly limited. It centers mostly on India
# 1600-1750 - The Great Companies. Way more countries involved, focuses on SEA and generally shifts the center from the Oman Sea and the Pacific to the Benghal Golf
# 1750-1860 - Some consolidation (VOC/EIB) but mostly a disengagement (due to Napoleonic wars?)
# 1860-1954 - The colonisation era

It's really the second phase that is crucial. The key to that is the success of the VOC. If the VOC was less successful, European presence in the area would be much more fractured. Maybe the English hold on better in their factorie or the French try their hand there instead of India?


There were missionary but nobody was forced to convert outside of the colonies. And the population of maritime SEA were islamicised before anything else. That's why Indonesia is a majority Muslim country.
Champa was also hindu before its conversion. Same with the Philippines, or Benghal.

Christian conversion was extremely limited and we actually have a lot of instances of Christians converting to Islam, especially in the early years...

Do you have any proof to your claims?
Majority of the Malaysia, Indonesia and philippines that is christian was converted by Spanish/Portuguese perhaps except perhaps for papua(christianized by protestant countries) and christian borneo(but the initial efforts are spanish/portuguese I believe).


a part of the christians that were converted by the portuguese and spanish in indonesia defected to protestantism..


It would be better if you got rid of UN's autismal adherence to administrative borders in the colonies, insisting countries that get independence have those trash tier borders (which were often based from borders of polities that were feudal trash, resulting in problems later on) they did

Exactly, what should have happened is that countries that comprised countries like indonesia and iraq should be independent..




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This thread is basically a discussion on a subject that i often tackle on my failed TL's
 
Majority of the Malaysia, Indonesia and philippines that is christian was converted by Spanish/Portuguese perhaps except perhaps for papua(christianized by protestant countries) and christian borneo(but the initial efforts are spanish/portuguese I believe).

a part of the christians that were converted by the portuguese and spanish in indonesia defected to protestantism..
So basically what you're asking for is how to have an Hindu SEA or how to avoid any European presence altogether?
That is two very different questions since, again, European presence was minimal before the XIXth century in SEA.

You also had some native Christian communities although I'd say it's more in India, but I'm less knowledgeable about it
 
So basically what you're asking for is how to have an Hindu SEA or how to avoid any European presence altogether?
That is two very different questions since, again, European presence was minimal before the XIXth century in SEA.

You also had some native Christian communities although I'd say it's more in India, but I'm less knowledgeable about it
kick/prevent the europeans from maritime south east asia..
 

Zachariah

Banned
How about having Maritime South East Asia Imperialists take over the rest of the world instead? After all, records indicate that Arab or Indian traders introduced gunpowder, gonnes, muskets, blunderbusses, and cannons to the Javanese, Acehnese, and Batak via long established commercial trade routes around the early to mid 14th century, around the same time as or earlier than it was introduced in Europe.The resurgent Singhasari Empire overtook Sriwijaya and later emerged as the Majapahit, due largely to its unique mastery of bronze-smithing and use of a central arsenal fed by a large number of cottage industries within the immediate region, and their warfare featured the widespread use of fire-arms and cannonade; Portuguese and Spanish invaders were unpleasantly surprised, and even admitted that they were outgunned by them on numerous occasions; but as firearms technology advanced more rapidly in Europe due to the most tumultuous, war-ridden state of affairs there, by the time that the Majapahit Empire fell in the early 16th century, the Indonesians had lost their early lead, with the newly arrived Portuguese iron firearms deemed to be superior to that of the locally made bronze variants. Javanese bronze breech-loaded swivel-guns, known as meriam, or erroneously as lantaka, were still used widely by the Majapahit navy until its demise, as well as by pirates and rival lords; and the dispersal of disaffected skilled bronze cannon-smiths to Brunei, modern Sumatra, Malaysia and the Philippines led to the technology seeing widespread use, especially in the Makassar Strait.

So then, here's my suggestion, which may seem somewhat oxymoronic at first glance: bring about the demise and decline of the Majapahit Empire earlier, with its purported empire of 98 tributaries in the late 14th century (after its rapid expansion and series of conquests using its early dominance in the field of fledgling gunpowder warfare) splintering away. Let's say that the Kingdom of Singapura holds out against the Mahapajit Imperial force's siege behind its impregnable walls; or that Sang Rajuna Tapa, an official in King Iskandar Shah's court, who reportedly secretly sent a message to the king of Majapahit pledging his support should the king choose to invade Singapura, seeking his own personal revenge against the king after his daughter, one of the king's concubines, had been accused of adultery and stripped naked in public, fails to get the message delivered to King Wikramawardhana.

Then, in 1404, the Majapahit Civil War kicks off, between the two contestants for the throne- the former king's nephew, son-in-law and designated heir Bhre Wikramawardhana, and the former' king's eldest son by one of his concubines, 'Bhre Wirabhumi' (true name unknown- simply 'the Duke of Wirabhumi'). In 1402, they became involved in a bitter quarrel, and after that they shunned each other and refused to talk. In 1403, through a dangerous gamble of power, Wirabhumi sought military assistance from the Chinese court against the Majapahit court; the Chinese Imperial court responded by recognizing his province's independence from the Majapahit Empire as the revived Kingdom of Blambangan, and in exchange Bhre Wirabhumi accepted a seal, commission, and other insignia of Chinese suzerainty over his land. This action would lead to the outbreak of a larger 'Paregreg War' (meaning slowly developed or step-by-step, indicating that there were many battles fought between the two sides, with both sides losing and winning significant battles) in 1404. But in 1406 IOTL, the western troops, led by Bhre Tumapel, Wikramawardhana's son, managed to penetrate as far as the Blambagan capital of Lumajang; Bhre Wirabhumi was defeated, and attempted to flee using a boat during the night, but was chased down and killed, with his head brought back to the Majapahit capital of Wilwatikta, and his daughter Bhre Daha brought back to be taken by King Wikramawardhana as a concubine, cementing his rule and ending the civil war within two years.

But still, even with such a speedy victory IOTL, the war crippled the Majapahit Empire; by 1405, West Borneo was held under Chinese influence, with rebellions seeing the city states of Palembang, Malayu, and Malacca break away (all of which would later go on to grow into thriving ports, independent from the Majapahit), while in northern Borneo, the Brunei Kingdom also liberated themselves from Javanese overlordship in 1406. And from then on, the Majapahit's technological advancement and military development stagnated, retarding Maritime SE Asia as a whole. But If Bhre Wirabhumi had won, forced peace by defeating the forces led by the crown prince Tumapel, or even simply held out for another year or two, the Majapahit Empire would have come to an end a full century earlier. And in the period of war and conflict which followed, you could see an arms race and trading race between the competing independent kingdoms of the region analogous to that going on over in Europe, driving firearms development along with the incentives for exploration and overseas colonization (with maritime development and the construction of more powerful naval armadas even more important here than it could ever be in the seas of Europe), resulting in South-East Asia being poorer than it was IOTL, but also resulting in them retaining their naval and military technological leads over the Europeans, as well as increasing their jingoism and resilience. And that increased jingoism and desperation would make it more likely for South-East Asian Kingdoms to fund expeditions, and to invest in colonial schemes further afield in order to acquire prestige, much-needed revenue, resources and territory, giving them the edge over their rival neighboring kingdoms. If one of them manages to round the Cape of Good Hope before the Europeans ITTL, and they establish a significant settlement (or settlements) there before the Europeans do, then they'll be cutting off the Europeans' sea route to India and the East, potentially dealing a death-blow to the Europeans' hopes of ruling the East in their infancy, and securing full control over the Indian Ocean (and potentially the Pacific as well) for themselves.
 
After all, records indicate that Arab or Indian traders introduced gunpowder, gonnes, muskets, blunderbusses, and cannons to the Javanese, Acehnese, and Batak via long established commercial trade routes around the early to mid 14th century, around the same time as or earlier than it was introduced in Europe.
What's your source for that? H. G. Q. Wales's Ancient South-East Asian Warfare says accounts of firearms in Majapahit are anachronistic, and the oldest gun found in Java is a Chinese one dated to 1421 (and even this one might have been a much later gun that was erroneously dated).

The resurgent Singhasari Empire overtook Sriwijaya and later emerged as the Majapahit, due largely to its unique mastery of bronze-smithing and use of a central arsenal fed by a large number of cottage industries within the immediate region, and their warfare featured the widespread use of fire-arms and cannonade
Kenneth R. Hall, a leading authority on Classical Southeast Asia, says gunpowder warfare was negligible in Java into the sixteenth century.

If Bhre Wirabhumi had won, forced peace by defeating the forces led by the crown prince Tumapel, or even simply held out for another year or two, the Majapahit Empire would have come to an end a full century earlier.
You are way overestimating the influence of Majapahit in the 15th century. Majapahit did not control the political dynamics of anywhere outside parts of Java for most of the fifteenth century, not in the Strait of Melaka, not in Borneo, and definitely not in eastern Indonesia.

driving firearms development along with the incentives for exploration and overseas colonization
What incentives? Why would warfare lead to overseas colonization any more than it did in 15th-century India or 12th-century China?
 
Disagreed on the Ottoman bit. The Ottomans didn't do anything until 1527 (top of my head) and Malacca had been taken by 1511.

However maybe a more successful Mamluk fleet in 1508? Sure their success was a bit outlandish thanks to bonkers Portuguese leadership but they could have done more if they hadn't taken a year to get there or if the mamluks had been more committed.

A popular revolt in Malacca would have helped possibly. I was reading a letter from an indigenous administrator about how the Portuguese were ruining the place and how they were mistreating their allies. Plus the king was still there and there was a lot of piracy.
The loss of Malacca could lead to a return of a fidalgos type of presence, basically just piracy and no "colonisation"

We also have to remember how ridiculously tiny and insignificant the European presence was until at least 1750. They had any clout because they were of good use to a good portion of the locals.
Same until 1930 actually, you cannot govern a country permanently in revolt unless you're making it a settler colony and swamp local population, but SEA could not be a European settler colony, not until quinine and even then, it was fairly unpleasant

Not to mention that the immense population bases in India and China makes turning any part of SEA into an Indian or Chinese-majority colony a far greater possibility than a European one.
 
Not to mention that the immense population bases in India and China makes turning any part of SEA into an Indian or Chinese-majority colony a far greater possibility than a European one.
To be honest, that's OTL. A lot of Indonesia was a Chinese settler and exploitation colony with a veneer of Dutch administration supporting them heavily
 
To be honest, that's OTL. A lot of Indonesia was a Chinese settler and exploitation colony with a veneer of Dutch administration supporting them heavily

And to be honest, I'm a descendant of such settlers, albeit under British rule. I should know. That's why I suggested it. :p
 
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