AHC: Pre-Normandy, attempted liberation of Paris

Like what happened in Warsaw 1944-5.
POD is Invasion of France.

Sorry I don't understand...

Do you mean, a major uprising in Paris before Normady landing?

Well... that is madness. The citizen will be massacred, the city blown up block by block.

The prime mover of Warsaw Uprising is the Red Army already days away from the city (only to redirect their advance route and let the Nazi bloodily quell the uprising)
 
The Heer puts it down and you have a lot of dead rebels and some numbers of dead civilians as well and parts of the city are damaged.

The Waffen SS puts it down and you have a reprise of the Waffen SS's actions in Warsaw in 1944 and much of the city is left in ruins.
 
When you say 'Pre-Normandy' do mean before the actual landing or before the Allies have broken out from Normandy? Both are kind of insane but one is slightly less than the other. In the case of Warsaw they had the Soviets expected to arrive shortly after it commenced, in either of the pre-landing or pre-breakout situations the Allies are still a long way off and not seriously expected to be able to intervene for some time. I honestly can't see what the attraction would be for the resistance or citizens of Paris to be honest, it's just asking to get massacred and parts of the city burned down.
 
Sorry I don't understand...

Do you mean, a major uprising in Paris before Normady landing?

Well... that is madness. The citizen will be massacred, the city blown up block by block.

The prime mover of Warsaw Uprising is the Red Army already days away from the city (only to redirect their advance route and let the Nazi bloodily quell the uprising)

I actually thought about this question since it was brought up in a different way a few months back.

First off you have to answer the question who is in charge of France militarily and politically? General Stülpnagel the military governor of France. Tortured and hung for his involvement in the July Plot. Von Rundstedt a bit of an arrogant old Prussian and Rommel obviously, but what did these men have in common? They all saw the war as effectively over with the only question being what terms they could get if any from the WAllies.

France was effectively at that point in time a bargaining chip and the only one they believed Germany had to get some conditions. They know France would have a big say in the post war treatment of Germany and what German troops did in regard to the French population could and would have a huge say as to things like if there even would be a Germany after the war something Rommel was very uncertain of.

When it came to the Warsaw Uprising. You had shall we say a more amoral hard assed German general in place Walter Model who made clear when ordered to put down the Warsaw uprising by Hitler that his treatment of the Poles caused the uprising and he wouldn't have his troops clean it up.

In taking that stance Germany including its regular army and its whole population still ended up with the blame and being punished for what the Waffen SS did in regard to the situation.

Walter Model: While commanding Army Group Centre, he refused to dispatch troops to put down the Warsaw uprising (a task that ultimately was carried out by the SS), viewing it as a rear-area matter. He stated that the revolt arose from the mistreatment of the Polish population by the Nazis, and the army should have nothing to do with it.

On the other hand, he showed no hesitation in clearing the Warsaw suburbs of Praga and Saska Kępa, through which vital supply lines ran.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Model

I thought about the response to something similar happening in Paris. If it happens pro-Normandy as talked about here you won't get the same response from the German generals in France.

They aren't going to force Hitler to have the SS take care of it by telling him its not our problem the way Model did, because they were politically astute enough to know all Germans would get the blame and suffer after the war for what happens, not just the SS.

They are going to be quite careful in how they tackle it to avoid pissing off the French more then they feel they have to and by extension the WAllies so no I don't see the city being leveled. Its not going to be pretty at all, but not as ugly as you believe IMHO.
 
Well, we all know all the Vercors uprising ended.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_du_Vercors

And that was a mostly unhabited area.

The fact the areas was mostly uninhabited made the deployment of Russian and Ukrainian troops of the Fallschirm-Battalion Jungwirth along with Vichy French forces something that was less politically dangerous then doing it for a densely inhabited city.

To overcome the centre of resistance around Vassieux-en-Vercors, Luftlandgeschwader 1 landed two companies of Russian/Ukrainian troops of Fallschirm-Battalion "Jungwirth" of the Brandenburg Lehr Battalion by DFS 230 and Gotha Go 242 gliders on July 23.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_du_Vercors

In dealing with Paris itself we are talking about something quite a bit more politically sensitive. The deployment of foreign troops or SS divisions might be supported by Berlin, but the German military leadership in France isn't going to want a Oradour-sur-Glane on massive scale in Paris along with the devastation of a metropolitan city they know will have a large political effect on what happens to Germany after the war.

This new book is only the second book in English to deal exclusively with the “Oradour Massacre” when 642 inhabitants of Oradour-sur-Glane were rounded up and murdered by a division of the Waffen-SS. The entire population was assembled in the village square. At about three o’clock the women and children were separated from the men.

The Germans accused the menfolk of storing arms and ammunition in the village. The men were then taken away in groups of between 30 and 70, and shoved into the six largest buildings in the village, including barns, garages, blacksmiths, etc. Of the 190 men thus incarcerated, only six got out alive. All the others were machine-gunned and then the buildings were set on fire. The women and children were locked up in the church. Two German soldiers carried in a box of gas grenades and then ran out.

The grenades exploded, and the smoke enveloped the entire church. During the ensuing mayhem, German soldiers burst in through the doors again and sprayed machine-gun fire into the crowds of people. When all appeared to be dead, they set fire to the church. The entire village was then burned, until very little remained except the charred ruins which stand there today.

The massacre was carried out by a detachment of the third company of the 1st Battalion of the No. 4 Panzergrenadier Regiment (“Der Führer”) of the Das Reich Division of the Waffen-SS. Most of the detachment which sacked Oradour were themselves Frenchmen, from Alsace and Lorraine.

When Rommel was told of the Oradour massacre he said that the Division should be punished, and offered to preside over a court-martial.

http://vho.org/GB/Journals/JHR/1/3/Brandon276.html
 
For a moment alter the idea of what a "Paris Uprising" constitutes. Try this for a moment.

1. Jedburgh teams are sent in a week before Op Neptune is executed. OTL they were not sent until latter july & August.

2. The French underground in and outside Paris starts a maximum effort against the German transportation system the same night Op Neptune starts. OTL the Brits/US were somewhat restrained and selective as to the activity they wanted from the French resistance.

Aside from getting a lot more French killed that summer, what are the possible effects of this? Among other things could it appreciablly hinder German reinforcements and supply to the Normandy battle?
 
For a moment alter the idea of what a "Paris Uprising" constitutes. Try this for a moment.

1. Jedburgh teams are sent in a week before Op Neptune is executed. OTL they were not sent until latter july & August.

2. The French underground in and outside Paris starts a maximum effort against the German transportation system the same night Op Neptune starts. OTL the Brits/US were somewhat restrained and selective as to the activity they wanted from the French resistance.

Aside from getting a lot more French killed that summer, what are the possible effects of this? Among other things could it appreciablly hinder German reinforcements and supply to the Normandy battle?

Interesting concept, my guess is quicker Allied movement into France. Maybe Germany retaliates by destroying Paris?
 
...
First off you have to answer the question who is in charge of France militarily and politically? General Stülpnagel the military governor of France. Tortured and hung for his involvement in the July Plot. Von Rundstedt a bit of an arrogant old Prussian and Rommel obviously, but what did these men have in common? They all saw the war as effectively over with the only question being what terms they could get if any from the WAllies.

France was effectively at that point in time a bargaining chip and the only one they believed Germany had to get some conditions. They know France would have a big say in the post war treatment of Germany and what German troops did in regard to the French population could and would have a huge say as to things like if there even would be a Germany after the war something Rommel was very uncertain of.

When it came to the Warsaw Uprising. You had shall we say a more amoral hard assed German general in place Walter Model who made clear when ordered to put down the Warsaw uprising by Hitler that his treatment of the Poles caused the uprising and he wouldn't have his troops clean it up.

In taking that stance Germany including its regular army and its whole population still ended up with the blame and being punished for what the Waffen SS did in regard to the situation.

I thought about the response to something similar happening in Paris. If it happens pro-Normandy as talked about here you won't get the same response from the German generals in France.

...

They are going to be quite careful in how they tackle it to avoid pissing off the French more then they feel they have to and by extension the WAllies so no I don't see the city being leveled. Its not going to be pretty at all, but not as ugly as you believe IMHO.

This would be modified by some German perceptions about the attitude of the 'French'. they had a lot of contact with Facisit fellow travelers in France & misjudged the sentiment of the general population from that contact. Also they were very aware of how the French civilian population had suffered from the Allied blockade, and air bombardment. By the summer of 1944 over 40,000 French civilians had died and close to 100,000 wounded by air attacks. The German leaders thought that had soured the French population towards the Allies as their children were being starved just like the Germans. As we know the bulk of the French population did not see it that way, but the thought was with the German leaders, which could distort their thinking somehow.
 
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