AHC: Pre French Revolution

Who would you advise for the position of Finance Minister?

  • Joseph Marie Terray

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Turgot

    Votes: 14 40.0%
  • Jacques Necker

    Votes: 16 45.7%
  • Calonne

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • Lomenie De Brienne

    Votes: 1 2.9%

  • Total voters
    35
AHC: Pre French Revolution

You are a valued advisor of King Louis XVI at the start of his reign in 1774; your goal is to advise the king on how to fix the economic and political problems in France before the famine of 1788-89. Who would you advise for the position of Finance Minister? Would you want France to get involved in the American Revolutionary War? What other changes would you advise? The list of choices for Finance Minster are towards the bottom.
Here are some events, facts and statistics from this period. These I found from my sources other sources may vary and srry if I can’t be that specific in some areas.

1774
France population 22,000,000, 90% rural, 10% urban, 6% serfs
Paris population 600,000, 50% of France’s wealth ,the book trade in Paris alone is worth 45 million Livres
45% of land in France is owned by peasants, average peasant pays 42% of income in taxes
49% of land owned by nobility, 26,000 feudal lords in France,
6% of land owned by clergy, Catholic Church’s, in France, sum value including all land and other property is 2 billion Livres
Paris Parlement and Provincial Parlements ratify or reject royal edicts, are very conservative and oppose most new measures that negatively affect the nobility or clergy.
Yearly deficit 140,000,000 Livres, yearly interest on debt 8,700,000 Livres, total debt is floating in the few billion area, yearly expenditures are some where over a billion Livres
Royal Household spends 4,600,000 Livres yearly, includes all 6,000 people at Versailles
Ministers of the State each get paid 150,000 Livres a year
Yearly trade comes to a sum worth of 800,000,000 Livres
Aid sent to American colonies from 1776-82 amounts to 19,000,000 Livres and the amount spent on the war with Great Britain even higher

Major kinds of taxes in France (1774)
Tallie tax on land and personal property (nobility and clergy exempted)
Poll tax only (clergy exempted)
Vingtieme tax on all property everyone pays (there are loopholes)
Indirect taxes on transport tolls, excise taxes, salt tax
Corvee tax (only peasants pay)
Average peasant pays 42% of income in taxes

1754
King Louis XV abolishes all restrains on transport and sale of grain. The price soon droped, but after bad harvests in 1760,65,67,68 and 69 the price rose way beyond pre 1754 levels.
1770
King Louis XV revokes his edicts on free trade of grain and beings regulation again.

Choice of Finance minister: For the debate pretend that they all live until after 1789
Joseph Marie Terray- wants to reduce expenditures, except royal household, and implement a series of new taxes, dues and fee’s the doubling of tolls on internal transport.
Turgot- part of the Physiocrat movement and wants to reduce economic regulations and lower taxes. He believes that land is the only source of wealth and wants a single tax on it. Turgot also wants to abolish all indirect taxes and Guilds. He wants to get a balanced budget and does not like to take out loans.
Jacques Necker- wants some measure of government control when needed. If free trade raises the price of bread to much he wants the government to regulate it. He wants to abolish serfdom and most indirect taxes but does want to keep a few. He believes that the government when necessary should take out large loans.
Calonne- wants to invest more money in infrastructure such as roads, canals and harbors. He also wants to have free trade in grain, remove tolls on internal transport and reduce the salt tax. He wants to raise money by increasing the number of lotteries and appealing to the clergy for funds.
Lomenie De Brienne- wants to increase the tax on land for all classes, cut expenditures in each government department and reduce royal expenditures.

Sources
Rousseau and Revolution by Will Durant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_French_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Marie_Terray
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne-Robert-Jacques_Turgot,_Baron_de_Laune
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Alexandre_de_Calonne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lomenie_de_Brienne
 
The problem was not the minister, but the entire taxations system, which spared the wealthiest ones in frances, namely the clergy and the nobility (cause they owned most of the land) due to thier privilèges. Well, it's even more complicated than that, as some provinces didn't had to pay certain taxes either (for exemple Britanny didn't had to pay la gabelle, a tax on salt), as well as certain cities or corporations. Not only it resulted in a complicate and inneficient taxation system, but the king couln't reform it on a whim.

The only way to fix it was to call the General Estates (as he did).
 
Well, when the Revolution comes, embrace it fully. That could be the only way to preserve the monarchy (and my head).
 
The smart thing to do would be to call the Estates General but make clear at an early stage it will be along the lines of 1614, with equal representation for each estate. Then pre-empt the revolution by proposing a new more progressive constitution before the Estates meet.
 
The smart thing to do would be to call the Estates General but make clear at an early stage it will be along the lines of 1614, with equal representation for each estate. Then pre-empt the revolution by proposing a new more progressive constitution before the Estates meet.


Would the king remain absolute or would he become a constitutional monarch?
 
The problem was not the minister, but the entire taxations system, which spared the wealthiest ones in frances, namely the clergy and the nobility (cause they owned most of the land) due to thier privilèges. Well, it's even more complicated than that, as some provinces didn't had to pay certain taxes either (for exemple Britanny didn't had to pay la gabelle, a tax on salt), as well as certain cities or corporations. Not only it resulted in a complicate and inneficient taxation system, but the king couln't reform it on a whim.

The only way to fix it was to call the General Estates (as he did).
Pretty much, yes.

Actually, if he'd had the guts to stick by e.g. Necker's unpopular reforms, he MIGHT have been able to fix France's finances, but that was politically very difficult, and might not have been possible.

But, yes. Changing the finance minister, which was done regularly, doesn't do any good, as anyone who actually tries to fix the systemic problems will be ousted before the fixes have a time to help.
 
Pretty much, yes.

Actually, if he'd had the guts to stick by e.g. Necker's unpopular reforms, he MIGHT have been able to fix France's finances, but that was politically very difficult, and might not have been possible.

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If he could see the future he probably would have stuck with it however politically difficult, wouldn't you say?;)
 

I find it very surreal whenever something I create is linked for general discussion. As fun as the game was, I am not sure it should be the basis for serious discussion. The game ended with Marie Antoinette becoming Empress of Virginia and Paris being leveled by terrorists.

As for appointments, I would likely choose Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot, Baron de Laune to act as Finance Minister. He is well-liked by the intellectual community, which would become the backbone to the French Revolution. It would be necessary to quickly co-opt as many revolutionary ideals as possible to ensure their support. The King must prevent the idea of the benevolent autocrat from being discredited.

I suppose I could try to sell some less profitable French colonies to lessen the debt, but the Estates General is inevitable.
 
I
As for appointments, I would likely choose Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot, Baron de Laune to act as Finance Minister. He is well-liked by the intellectual community, which would become the backbone to the French Revolution. It would be necessary to quickly co-opt as many revolutionary ideals as possible to ensure their support. The King must prevent the idea of the benevolent autocrat from being discredited.
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Voltaire did say in regard to Torgut that he had "scarcely ever seen a man more lovable or better informed", so i suppose at least he has Voltaire's approval which is really all that matters.:)
 
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