AHC: Pre-1900 Russian rule over Hungary

raharris1973

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Russian monarchs directly ruled Poland or parts of it from 1772-1914, 142 years (minus 6 to 8 years for the Grand Duchy of Warsaw).

How could we have a similarly lengthy period Russian rule over Hungary at any time between the founding of Kiev and Novgorod and 1900? The whole Hungarian enchilada is not required, occupation of even just a large chunk of it will be a qualifying response. The specific format of Russian rule can be flexible, it can have its own constitution and civil government like the Grand Duchy of Finland or Kingdom of Congress Poland in the 19th century, or it could integrated as just additional Russian guberniyas or oblasts or provinces.
 
Geography would make this very hard. Russian access to Hungary would also imply that they have Poland, Galicia, and the Romanian states, which doesn't sound like a recipe for national stability.
 
Russia getting into the Hungarian plains would definitely be a step too far for the other powers of Europe to tolerate: you'll see everybody else banding together to stop the encroaching Romanov just like every other would-be hegemony ran into, and they'd either have to crush all opposition or concede to pulling back into tolerable bounderies.
 
Have Sviatoslav the brave of Kiev not be killed by the Pechnegs. He had conquered Wallachia and Moldova, as well as parts of Bulgaria and Khazaria, and moved the capital to a coastal city in Romania. He also had a large number of Magyars fighting for him, so he had some relations with Hungary. This wouldn't stop him from invading if he could though. He basically was always at war, and, when the opportunity presented itself, he betrayed allies that were no longer useful. For example after defeating the Bulgars for Byzantium, he turned on the Greeks. It was after this unsuccessful campaign that the Byzantines payed a Pechneg khan to kill Sviatoslav. If he survives, but leaves the greeks alone (maybe agreeing to take $100 to F***k off, which his dad did OTL 3 times), he would likely look to Poland or Hungary next (after decimating the pechnegs of course) in an attempt to take expand out of the way of the Byzantines. There wasn't much to take east of the Rus. If he wanted to go east, he would have absorbed all of Khazaria, but he didn't care enough about the region. So yeah. And by the time he's ready to try again with Greece, he would likely die, and one of his sons, Yaropolk or Vladimir, would decide to ally with the Greeks instead, since both of them were Christian, and pro-byzantine OTL.
This means: East of Russia is a lot of grass. North is some primitive Baltic tribes. West are the wends, not yet part of the HRE. South are allies. So they might actually have a long enough peaceful period to keep their western holdings in check for a while.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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Have Sviatoslav the brave of Kiev not be killed by the Pechnegs. He had conquered Wallachia and Moldova, as well as parts of Bulgaria and Khazaria, and moved the capital to a coastal city in Romania. He also had a large number of Magyars fighting for him, so he had some relations with Hungary. This wouldn't stop him from invading if he could though. He basically was always at war, and, when the opportunity presented itself, he betrayed allies that were no longer useful. For example after defeating the Bulgars for Byzantium, he turned on the Greeks. It was after this unsuccessful campaign that the Byzantines payed a Pechneg khan to kill Sviatoslav. If he survives, but leaves the greeks alone (maybe agreeing to take $100 to F***k off, which his dad did OTL 3 times), he would likely look to Poland or Hungary next (after decimating the pechnegs of course) in an attempt to take expand out of the way of the Byzantines. There wasn't much to take east of the Rus. If he wanted to go east, he would have absorbed all of Khazaria, but he didn't care enough about the region. So yeah. And by the time he's ready to try again with Greece, he would likely die, and one of his sons, Yaropolk or Vladimir, would decide to ally with the Greeks instead, since both of them were Christian, and pro-byzantine OTL.
This means: East of Russia is a lot of grass. North is some primitive Baltic tribes. West are the wends, not yet part of the HRE. South are allies. So they might actually have a long enough peaceful period to keep their western holdings in check for a while.

I think its interesting to bring up the potential of pre-Romanov periods like you did as well!
 
Russian monarchs directly ruled Poland or parts of it from 1772-1914, 142 years (minus 6 to 8 years for the Grand Duchy of Warsaw).

How could we have a similarly lengthy period Russian rule over Hungary at any time between the founding of Kiev and Novgorod and 1900? The whole Hungarian enchilada is not required, occupation of even just a large chunk of it will be a qualifying response. The specific format of Russian rule can be flexible, it can have its own constitution and civil government like the Grand Duchy of Finland or Kingdom of Congress Poland in the 19th century, or it could integrated as just additional Russian guberniyas or oblasts or provinces.

Well, your time frame includes period when Russian rule does not implies rule by unified Russian state. So let’s assume that before Mongolian Western Campaign Daniel, the Great Prince of Galicia, raised to the occasion, swore loyalty to the Great Khan and joined the fun (IIRC, he had issues with the Hungarians on a regular base and, generally, was quite intelligent but with the Mongols he always had been learning things a hard way even if Batu liked him). His loyalty is rewarded and he is made a ruler of the occupied Hungarian territories. So you have state Galicia-Hungary ruled by the Russian princes and just have to maintain its existence for less than a couple centuries. :)
 

raharris1973

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Yes, I think this is more feasible under pre-Romanov PoDs, with the Mongol era as perhaps one of the times where this could be put within reach.

That said, can anybody come up with a way for Romanov or late Rurikovich Russia/Muscovy from say Ivan III onward to meet the challenge of Russian rule over all or part of Hungary? What about the less ambitious, but still ambitious, goal of Russian rule over Moldavia and Wallachia?
 
Yes, I think this is more feasible under pre-Romanov PoDs, with the Mongol era as perhaps one of the times where this could be put within reach.

That said, can anybody come up with a way for Romanov or late Rurikovich Russia/Muscovy from say Ivan III onward to meet the challenge of Russian rule over all or part of Hungary? What about the less ambitious, but still ambitious, goal of Russian rule over Moldavia and Wallachia?
Moldavia and Walachia would be feasible in the XVIII, especially if in the wars against the Ottomans Russia would not be saddled with the Austrian allies. It would be possible in the war of 1806 - 12 if Alexander was not messing with Nappy at the same time: in OTL thr principalities had been occupied and there was no 3rd party to interfere.

I can (with difficulty) imagine scenarios when in 1848 Hungarian crown is offered to Romanov: again, nobody would be able to interfere in a meaningful way for the next few years and then it would be too late.

Then there could be a case of a sincere ‘love affair’ between Alexander and Nappy with Russia actively joining France in 1809, Nappy deciding to break up the Hapsburg state and Russia getting Hungaryand Galicia as a reward. Galicia is split between Russia and the Duchy of Warsaw and independent Hungary is getting Constantine as a king. Again, nobody is in a position to do something about it.
 
OK, what about Russia incorporating Moldavia and Wallachia directly into its empire instead?

Make the Prout campaign of Peter I a success and this could happen even if this was not an initial goal ( it is rather hard to tell what was the real goal of tha expedition).

Or this could happen as a byproduct of Munnick’s campaign if he was a really good ( instead of just lucky) field commanders and if the Austrian allies are disregarded. The same for both Catherine’s wars against the Ottomans (screw the Austrians in both cases). In practical terms, nobody would be able to do anything to prevent Russian annexation of the territories occupied by its troops: Austria would not go to war and neither would Prussia but Russian diplomacy was quite timid and based upon the wrong assumptions like a traditional alliance with Austria which was not producing anything but troubles or an idea that a right way of dealing with Old Fritz is to concede to his wishes.
 
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