AHC: Powerful Ottonians

What if the Ottonian dynasty did not die out with Otto III? What if Otto II and Otto III lived long enough to create a centralized German kingdom which replaces the 'confederation' of German duchies and principalities that formed the bulk of the Holy Roman Empire? How will that change the history of Europe?
 

MSZ

Banned
Do you mean a lasting centralized German state, or just the Ottonians living longer? Because even with the HRE becoming more centralized under the Ottonians in the XIth century, it is likely to disintigrate later, like under the Hohenstaufens...

I personaly always believed that a lasting HRE centralized in the middle ages would become a behemot powerful enough to eventually dominate all of Europe, turning it into a India-like union of states/nationalities, with Roman Catholicism as a unifying force; essentaily a second Roman Empire, only with north and east Europe in it's sphere, rather than north Africa and the middle east.
 
I pretty much think you would need some civil wars first so the Ottonians can nip the prince's powers in the bud, and establish firmer control over the state with a better more reformed military a la Prussia. You would need the the support of some families, and would need to kill the opposition giving titles as rewards, and consolidating the principalities so that the Dynasty has more centralized control over the Empire. Crush France and Spain First, they were the ones always trying to keep Germany disunited with Italy, so they could maintain their vestiges of power.
 
It would change the balance of power in Europe and would completely alter history.

France became the dominant power in Western Europe because its kings achieved a relatively centralized state compared to other European powers.

A centralized German state would likely be the greatest power in Europe, or the second just behind France. It would include the Netherlands, half of Belgium, and most of what is now eastern France including Burgundy. If you include Northern Italy as well you have a dominant power.

Much of Medieval history becomes similar to the first century after Germany united in 1871 - European politics is dominated by the question of how does the rest of Europe contain German power?

I see two possibilities. One is that the rest of Europe is able to contain German ambitions which results in a similar political structure that we have today.

The other is that the Holy Roman Emperor becomes the true primus inter pares in Europe. The other European monarchies acknowledge the German king as a sort of suzerain, and Germany arbitrates disputes between the lesser powers of Europe. In many ways, the German kings succeed in creating a new Western Roman Empire and restores the ideal of a universal Christian state throughout Europe. This utterly changes European political, religious, and legal thought. If the Germans are able to stop France from centralziing, they might even expand the HRE border's to its Carolingian frontiers making the "King of France" no more important than the Duke of Burguny or Margrave of Austria.
 
Do you mean a lasting centralized German state, or just the Ottonians living longer? Because even with the HRE becoming more centralized under the Ottonians in the XIth century, it is likely to disintigrate later, like under the Hohenstaufens...

Well, under the Ottonians and the earlier kings of the Salian dynasty (up to Henry III) Germany seemed on the road toward a powerful, unified, centralized monarchy. But then Henry IV and his successors got embroiled with the Papacy in the Investiture Controversy, which went on throughout the rest of the Salian Dynasty and the Hohenstauffen dynasty, and the local Dukes and Counts were able to use this chaotic situation as an excuse to strip power away from the monarchy and entrench their own power. That is where the decentralized Holy Roman Empire with a weak monarchy really came from.

So if, somehow, the German Kings can avoid getting involved with the Investiture controversy, the trend toward a stronger monarchy should continue, and by 1500 you should have a Germany at least as unified as France, England and Spain were at that same period. Which would create HUGE butterflies.
 
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