Once the CSA wins, do they really need allies, as opposed to just trading partners? After that much of a loss, the US isn't going to be attacking unless there's a sign of significant weakness on the CSA's part, and there's absolutely nothing else in the neighborhood that would be a military threat to the CSA. The USA did just fine for 50+ years without any actual allies, why does the CSA need them?
AHC:Possible Allies of CSA
- Thread starter DensetsuNoAudie
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Anaxagoras
Banned
You're correct that any abolition of slavery in the Confederacy would certainly be followed by some sort of apartheid system. But even getting to abolition will take decades. Southern culture had long since tossed away the Jeffersonian idea that slavery was a necessary evil in favor of considering it a positive good. Besides, the Confederate Constitution made it almost impossible to abolish slavery even if the large majority of the Confederate population wanted to.
It may be that European powers decide that can muck around in Latin America after all and opposition to this by both the USA and CSA brings the two into some sort of rapprochement in order to jointly oppose such moves.
Having a larger, stronger, unfriendly neighbor on its borders?
Which isn't the case for the US in the 1800-1860 period.
mowque
Banned
The USA and the UK worked together on several issues. Maybe not allies but mild friends, surely?
Which really wasn't an active threat the way the USA would be to the CSA.
This is very true, and will be at the top of any Confederate government's mind, always, but the US still isn't going to be raring for a fight for at least a couple decades unless the Confederacy looks weak or acts aggressively. But beyond that, I'm not even sure how helpful a military ally could be to the Confederacy. The only other powers in the area are Spain and the UK, and only the latter would be much help in a land war with the US. And the problems with a UK-Confederacy alliance have already been discussed. I don't think any European country not already involved in the Americas would consider sending troops across the Atlantic.
So, in short, the Confederacy's sole threat is the US. And unless the CSA can successfully make a British alliance, no outside force is going to be much help in dealing with that threat. And this is running with the assumption that the US is going to be highly hostile to the victorious CSA, which I think is not necessarily the case unless the CSA acts stupidly or starts falling apart. I think both sides would know a re-match would be a bloodbath regardless of the outcome.
AtriumCarceris
Banned
Pretty much everyone besides probably Russia is fair game. The idea of the CSA as a pariah nation is vastly overstated.
But what's likely? It depends. Really, I kind of agree that the CSA would lack actual "allies" akin to the USA at the time. But if somehow the CSA won its independence purely due to some foreign intervention, then probably whoever intervened would be an ally. That's rather unlikely though, for a few reasons.
But what's likely? It depends. Really, I kind of agree that the CSA would lack actual "allies" akin to the USA at the time. But if somehow the CSA won its independence purely due to some foreign intervention, then probably whoever intervened would be an ally. That's rather unlikely though, for a few reasons.
Which for most of its history had less than 1/10th of the US's population. Not a compatible situation.
It may not be 'raring for a fight", but the fact that the CSA has to prepare for one is going to mean that having some way of dealing with that is one of the CSA's #1 priorities.
The fact that no European country really would give a shit about the CSA's independence is one reason why the CSA is buggered.
And a couple decades? That'd be a long time to wait.
The fugitive slave issue is going to enflame tensions - and somehow winning is going to encourage all the stupidly overconfident elements of the CSA something fierce.
As for not being much help . . . and . . . so?
And the cost has what to do with the fact that the USA will want revenge, at the very least, again?
Frankly, I think the CSA is dependent on the USA clutching the idiot ball to even win its independence, to maintain it requires the idiot ball being held on to as possessively as the One Ring.
Alright, you've made good points. The CSA would indeed want military allies if any were available. But they're not.
However, if the Union does manage to fall on its face and lose the Civil War, it's not going to be eager to invade the CSA again unless the CSA looks like it's falling apart. I'd expect people to start muttering how it was "meant to be" as soon as the South successfully separates itself from the rest of the country. Reconquest isn't going to be on the table, at least at first.
mowque
Banned
See, I expect the reverse. The wounds will be raw. And places like Kentucky, Missouri, Tennessee, heck even Texas will be hotbeds of violence and bushwhacking.
Reggie Bartlett
Banned
England
France
Maxamillian Mexico
Brazil
Spain (Possibly)
Canada (through Britain)
France
Maxamillian Mexico
Brazil
Spain (Possibly)
Canada (through Britain)
Day One policy for the CS is to build industry that can match the Union, yet in places where the Union can't easily strike at it. Assuming the traditional route of Confederate victory (Lee routs at Gettysburg, Anglo-French recognition and intervention follow) the Confederacy will have some kind of ally in Britain and France. In my view, Davis will endorse Lee to run, and Lee wins. (With a shorter CW, Lee won't have that amount of stress exacerbating hiss heart trouble) Lee, ever the pragmatist, would seek a gradual and compensated emancipation, hopefully done slow enough to satisfy the aristocrats and yet swiftly enough to keep Britain and France in their corner. By 1890, Slavery is dead, CS Industry has been built with aid from France and Britain, Cuba will soon either be bought or conquered, Maximilian is on the Mexican throne, and the CS has allies in Mexico, France, Brazil and Britain. Not a bad alliance, if I do say so myself.
No, people will start muttering about how thanks to the blankedy-blank _____, the Union lost.
JMT: And this is why the classic "Confederacy wins' scenario is unrealistic as hell.
Anaxagoras
Banned
The Confederate Constitution basically forbids the government from doing this sort of thing.
Although Lee being the second CS President is a common occurrence in CS Victory TLs, I just don't see it. Lee had absolutely no interest in politics, nor did he had the personality for it. After the war was over, I think he would have simply retired and perhaps written a memoir of his time as commander of the AoNV.
How? The Confederate Constitution essentially makes the the abolition of slavery impossible even if the majority of Confederate citizens actually want it.
I know this sounds a little strange, but what if the Germans became their allies at some point? 