AHC: Portuguese-Venetian Union

I just don't see a union between any state and the Venetian Republic happening unless it is by conquest. Most likely of the Republic. It's about cultural and political differences that are pretty Grand Canyon-esque..

Perhaps a POD could be accomplished of a union between maritime republics? Certainly not Genoa. Maybe Amalfi? There is significant problem of trade competition to overcome, in general.
 
I just don't see a union between any state and the Venetian Republic happening unless it is by conquest. Most likely of the Republic. It's about cultural and political differences that are pretty Grand Canyon-esque..

Perhaps a POD could be accomplished of a union between maritime republics? Certainly not Genoa. Maybe Amalfi? There is significant problem of trade competition to overcome, in general.

A personal Union is the weird thing here, I mean I could see a vassalic relationship as far more likely than a personal union which pretty much requires a monarchy.
 
A personal Union is the weird thing here, I mean I could see a vassalic relationship as far more likely than a personal union which pretty much requires a monarchy.

Exactly right. Union of Venice under a monarchy implies its conquest by another. The Venetians until the end were pretty committed to their system of governance.
 
Didn't some of the early doges attempt (and in a couple instances succeed) in passing power to their sons?

Less often than you might think, but Petro Candiano III did associate his son, a fourth Petro, with him as ruler in a clear attempt to establish a dynasty and a later Doge, Marin Falier, tried to overthrow the republican constitution. Pietro IV Candiano was removed violently; Marin Falier was found out and executed.

That said, Venice and Portugal are still fairly far from one another and don't have much in the way of common interests for a marital alliance, but that at least solves the first hurdle.

If Venice is desperate enough, they will have to accept whatever alliance they can get on whatever terms are offered (such as electing the Portuguese king as Doge). It's still really difficult to come up with a plausible real-life instance when Venice was threatened and Portugal the most probable -- or only -- potential savior. Maybe the early or mid-1400s?
 

scholar

Banned
Venice was a Republic from its founding, in other words over a thousand years; there were no Monarchists.
Venice was an aristocratic republic, one with occasional monarchical leanings when alliances were forged.
 

scholar

Banned
One in which those monarchial leanings, if too threatening, were generally terminated with a colorful finality as a discouragement to the others.;)
And the reason why they were so artfully terminated was precisely because they posed a threat to the continued existence of the aristocratic republic. Simply have one of those factions either appear "nonthreatening" or rise to prominence with an necessary ally supporting them to the point where they can color the other side that vibrant color red. :eek:
 
If Venice is desperate enough, they will have to accept whatever alliance they can get on whatever terms are offered (such as electing the Portuguese king as Doge). It's still really difficult to come up with a plausible real-life instance when Venice was threatened and Portugal the most probable -- or only -- potential savior. Maybe the early or mid-1400s?

If you mean simply an alliance and not a union, it's conceivable but improbable -- because of distance and after the mid-15th C., inimical trade rivalry.

In 1000 years of Venetian history, where its back was literally against a wall several times, it did not resort to surrendering its sovereignty until it end when it was an empty enough shell for Napoleon to literally walk in.

Surrender territory (temporarily, when it could), yes. Sovereignty, no.
 
In 1000 years of Venetian history, where its back was literally against a wall several times, it did not resort to surrendering its sovereignty until it end when it was an empty enough shell for Napoleon to literally walk in.

9th century: around 805, Venice accepted Frankish suzerainty. Subsequently it was repudiated and after the siege by Pippin failed, Venice became officially Byzantine. All de jure of course, but technically Venice recognized someone else as sovereign when convenient. [I haven't found an answer to when Venice dropped the appearance of being a Byzantine outpost.]

It's true that Venice never elected a foreign Doge, but I don't think there was ever an occasion where it was faced with the choice between a white knight foreigner and conquest by a different power. Not sure which occasions you meant during which Venice's back was literally to a wall. Pippin's siege and the War of Cambrai were the times of greatest danger that I can think of. Venice took the Byzantine option after the first; there wasn't that kind of offer on the table during the second.

As others have said, Portugal isn't the easiest power for Venice to get a union with. There was a Venetian king of Hungary (Pietro Orsoleo) in the eleventh century. If he had been elected doge, there could have been a personal union during his lifetime.
 
9th century: around 805, Venice accepted Frankish suzerainty. Subsequently it was repudiated and after the siege by Pippin failed, Venice became officially Byzantine. All de jure of course, but technically Venice recognized someone else as sovereign when convenient. [I haven't found an answer to when Venice dropped the appearance of being a Byzantine outpost.]

It's true that Venice never elected a foreign Doge, but I don't think there was ever an occasion where it was faced with the choice between a white knight foreigner and conquest by a different power. Not sure which occasions you meant during which Venice's back was literally to a wall. Pippin's siege and the War of Cambrai were the times of greatest danger that I can think of. Venice took the Byzantine option after the first; there wasn't that kind of offer on the table during the second.

As others have said, Portugal isn't the easiest power for Venice to get a union with. There was a Venetian king of Hungary (Pietro Orsoleo) in the eleventh century. If he had been elected doge, there could have been a personal union during his lifetime.

I was referring to de facto loss of sovereignty. De jure counts as much as it is respected -- meaning little in this case, in the eyes of Venice.

In the 14 th C., the War of Chioggia -- the war between Venice and Genoa, was another instance of Venice in dire straits.

Why would King Peter be elected Doge? His father, Otto, who was Doge, was thrown out of office and out of Venice. He didn't fare any better as the king of Hungary, being deposed twice. The second time, fatally.
 
Why would King Peter be elected Doge? His father, Otto, who was Doge, was thrown out of office and out of Venice. He didn't fare any better as the king of Hungary, being deposed twice. The second time, fatally.

I know. A number of real life events have to unfold differently. Let Otto have a successful reign, and live until a year after Peter becomes king of Hungary; Peter's Hungarian reign gets off to a good start; and Venice has a need for a Hungarian alliance. It's more plausible than any Portuguese option.

There was one other country where a Venetian was a royal ruler: Cyprus. Eventually, Venice just took over directly, but it should be possible to instead get a king of Cyprus who also ruled in Venice. It's not the same as Portugal or Hungary -- Venice would be the senior partner.

I agree that the Venetian-Genoese Wars swung heavily in the Genoese favor some of the time; I just can't think of any occasion during them where having a joint ruler of a foreign state and Venice became an option.
 
9th century: around 805, Venice accepted Frankish suzerainty. Subsequently it was repudiated and after the siege by Pippin failed, Venice became officially Byzantine. All de jure of course, but technically Venice recognized someone else as sovereign when convenient. [I haven't found an answer to when Venice dropped the appearance of being a Byzantine outpost.]
It was in 804, when the pro-Frankish faction took (very temporarily) the power and managed to elect Obelerio degli Antoneri as doge. When Obelerio tried to enforce his authority with the support of Pepin the city rebelled and Obelerio was forced to flee the city with his family. Pepin tried to set up a siege but after six months the only result was the loss of a substantial portion of the Frankish army to sickness. In 805 Charlemagne and Nicephorus signed an agreement recognizing the respective sphere of influence (not borders which would have been too much for the thinking of the time), and Venice was recognised by both empires as being a Byzantine "subject" (as it was anyway before the short term of the unlamented Obelerio: after all being Byzantine "subjects" was no big deal as removed as Venice was from Constantinople and it brought lower import and export duties on Venetian traders in the City). Venice formally remained a Byzantine "subject" until 1084 when the formal independence of Venice was recognised by the emperor as a reward for Venetyian assistance in the war against the Normans of Apulia (and since the Chrysobulla exempting Venetian traders from any tax or duty in the ERE was granted on the same date there was no more any advantage in being Byzantine "subjects). As far as the Frankish side, it looks like they accepted with good grace Venice status, and not only rescinded the prohibition for Venetian traders to trade in the Pentapolis and on the Adriatic coast but granted new trading privileges (mostly linked to attendance at the great trade fair of Pavia).

It's true that Venice never elected a foreign Doge, but I don't think there was ever an occasion where it was faced with the choice between a white knight foreigner and conquest by a different power. Not sure which occasions you meant during which Venice's back was literally to a wall. Pippin's siege and the War of Cambrai were the times of greatest danger that I can think of. Venice took the Byzantine option after the first; there wasn't that kind of offer on the table during the second.
I agree that the war of Cambrai was one of the worst circumstances for Venice, but such widespread coalitions seldom last long enough. Pepin's siege was no big deal: he could have stayed in the marshes for 10 years rather than the 6 months he actually did and the only result would have been more deaths caused by marsh fevers and typhoid fever. Most likely the worse risk run by the Serenissima was the war of Chioggia, when the republic was certainly pushed to her limits and beyond. Another bad time was in the 14th century when Hungary was ascendant and Venice lost her Dalmatian holdings to their king. The Hungarians raided heavily into Friuli and Veneto and were allied to Verona and Padua: nothing came out of it but it was rather a nervous time. Same as when Suleiman ordered the siege of Corfu (1537) or when Crete was lost. In none of these cases Venice ever considered a foreign ruler, or even recognising the overlordship of the HRE or the Papacy.

As others have said, Portugal isn't the easiest power for Venice to get a union with. There was a Venetian king of Hungary (Pietro Orsoleo) in the eleventh century. If he had been elected doge, there could have been a personal union during his lifetime.

Technically he could not anyway: IIRC a Venetian citizen would loose all his rights if he became a ruler of a foreign country. In practice there is very little likelyhood that the Senate might give a majority to a foreign ruler (and ever if it happened there would have been an immediate and bloody revolution: Venetians were too proud of their government and traditions, and the Arsenalotti were the proudest of the lot.
 
Someone who gets elected doge is also next in line for the Portuguese crown. Super unlikely, but there's something.

There was this portuguese fellow who was a cardinal and next in line to the portuguese throne, as Sebastião I had no heirs. In OTL Sebastião went crusading in North Africa and died, so this guy became king. If we had a POD some years before his ascension to the portuguese throne we could have him be nominated patriarch of Venice (or some other religious authority of prominence in the area) and then have venetians elect him for dogeship, and later on have him inheriting the portuguese throne as he did historically?
Not sure if it'd be possible, though.
 
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