AHC: Portuguese Empire Truly Ascendant

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by John7755 يوحنا, Oct 12, 2019 at 9:25 PM.

  1. John7755 يوحنا Historical Inquiries

    Dec 30, 2014
    Your challenge should you choose to accept it, is with a POD in 1415 and a final ending in the year 1900, for Portugal to capture and maintain rule over a much larger empire than otl. This challenge will be formulated as other challenges I have made on this forum, such as for Innocent III, that is by points. The person who is able to acquire the most points can 'win' if you like. Each point you give, that is not quite obvious, should be given reason and how.

    Additional Rules and stipulations:

    1. None of these may be achieved by Personal union with Castile or Aragon. Thus, this is not to be a Portuguese led Spanish empire. Portugal can acquire lands of Galicia and Asturias from them, but that is all. Portugal though can achieve any other union if the poster so decides and reasons this.

    2. The control can be maintained indirectly. So, it can be serious of vassals like in the case of Japan, Portugal may rule as a sort of Shogun figure or have many series of princely states as in Hindustan or clients in Korea or Ethiopia.

    Thus, here are the following points to be gained, which will be broken down by region/continent.

    Europe and Northern Africa

    +0 Maintenance of Portugal
    +1 Gibraltar
    +5 Galicia
    +1 Ceuta and Tangiers
    +2 Fez
    +2 Marrakech
    +3 Morocco
    +6 Asturias
    +3 Barbary Coast
    +4 'Algeria'


    +1 for every non-major Caribbean island (Martinique, St.Kitts, etc would be these)
    +3 Bahamas
    +1 Bermuda
    +15 Hispaniola
    +12 Jamaica
    +17 Cuba
    +8 Porto Rico

    North America

    +4 Florida
    +3 Southern Gulf Coast
    +6 Carolinas and Virginia
    +8 New York State
    +5 New England
    +12 Mississippi Valley, otl Louisiana Territory
    +10 Quebec
    +3 New Brunswick
    +2 any other land

    Mexico and Central America

    +35 Mexico proper
    +5 Maya lands
    +3 any other Central American region
    +6 Panama

    South America

    +34 Incan Empire holdings
    +10 Rio da Prata river Valley
    +2 Chile
    +12 Colombia and Venezuela coastal lands
    +20 OTL Brazil
    +3 Guyana
    +2 any other land


    +2 Cap Verde
    +1 Azores
    +1 Madeira
    +9 Golden and Ivory Coast
    +13 Benin
    +3 Sierra Leon
    +3 Liberia
    +2 Gambia
    +36 Nigeria proper
    +10 any other West African country
    +9 OTL Angola
    +2 West African islands
    +22 Kongo (crownlands along coast)
    +11 Cape of Good Hope
    +15 South Africa proper
    +3 Namibia
    +10 OTL Mozambique
    +10 Madagascar
    +11 Zimbabwe
    +7 Mogadishu
    +6 Zanzibar
    +14 rest of the Swahili lands up
    +13 Somalia proper
    +33 Ethiopia
    +6 any other interior East African country-land

    Western and Southern Asia

    +1 Goa
    +3 Qeshm island
    +8 Oman
    +10 Yemen
    +1 Socotra
    +2 Any other Arab holding in Arabia
    +17 Basra
    +50 Historic Babylonia
    +19 Hormuz
    +55 Persia
    +30 any other Iranian land
    +34 Afghanistan
    +1 Indian Ocean Islands
    +20 Bengal
    +15 Delhi
    +50 Deccan
    +5 Sri Lanka
    +22 Telegu lands
    +39 Marathi lands
    +23 Gujarat
    +24 Southern Indian coastline
    +17 Orissa lands
    +60 Pakistan
    +70 Gangetic plains
    +57 Punjab
    +30 Rajput lands
    +10 for the rest of South Asia

    Southeast Asia and Oceania

    +3 Flores
    +40 Java
    +39 Malaysia
    +32 Sumatra
    +33 Borneo
    +20 Moluccas
    +16 Sulawesi
    +30 Philippines
    +12 New Guinea
    +9 Australia
    +40 Vietnam
    +39 Thailand
    +29 Cambodia
    +16 Burma
    +7 interior Southeast Asia
    +5 New Zealand
    +5 Samoan, Tongan and other Polynesian islands
    +3 Hawaii

    East Asia

    +2 Macau
    +6 Taiwan
    +4 Okinawa
    +3 any coastal Chinese city
    +70 Korea
    +100 Japan proper

    Hope that this gets some attention, I am curious as to what the board thinks regarding the ultimate limit of the Portuguese empire, at least in terms of gathering these points

  2. Pyramus Known Unwell Member Gone Fishin'

    Mar 9, 2017
    Best Carolina
    As a starting point, King Sebastian doesn’t die in battle while crusading in Morocco. This avoids the extinction of House Aviz, and thus avoids Portugal becoming Spain’s junior partner in a personal union for centuries.

    Also, if Sebastian doesn’t die in battle, he could successfully conquer some North African territory, which could be the beginning of expansion in the old world.
    Miguel Lanius likes this.
  3. Lampiao Well-Known Member

    Jan 10, 2015
    Just break down Castile before its union with Aragon, preferably make Andalusia an independent kingdom, which wouldn't be a serious contender for the Portuguese on the sea.

    Seriously, once Castile and Aragon are strongly united, Portugal is finlandized, pretty much unavoidable (ie. Portuguese interested would only exist if they were not a threat to the Spaniards).
    FleetMac and Miguel Lanius like this.
  4. Miguel Lanius Well-Known Member

    May 2, 2012

    That already gets a much better Portugal than OTL.

    Its not ideal, but its a start
  5. TimTurner Cartoon Phanatic

    Apr 11, 2015
    DFW area, Texas (no, Tibecuador)
    Could Portugal and Galicia form a personal union ITTL?
  6. TheKutKu Well-Known Member

    Jan 3, 2016
    Autonomous Region of Cabinda
    For the biggest prize of the list (why isn’t China on it? After all if it owns large part of the rest Portugal can hope to colonise China with the right circumstances).
    Have japan avoid the sengoku period and face growing population and urbanisation that leads to mass deforestation (something it already faced IRL at the end of the first millennia and the late 17th century, the latter which was stopped in time by reform by the Tokugawas ), which, if not stopped, leads to a large scale erosion and degradation of the fertility of the islands and a population collapse which would make the islands easier to invade, then have a Portugal that has Galicia and Asturias (for larger sailor and army size) and colonies in the cape (for an important, ressource rich stopover), and finally, and most importantly, an adventurer with Pizzaro level of sheer lucks.

    With all these circumstances Portugal could have a shot at conquering japan in the late 16th century, it’s certainly a long shot, but i’m Not sure it’s 100% ASB