AHC: Poland-wank

Goal: With a POD from 1918 to 1939, have Poland become a large country bigger than its OTL borders and globally significant to resist the Germans during Fall Weiss.
 

yannik

Banned
How should that be?
Poland acquired already large Parts of German terriory and with more (ethnic) Germans in its borders have even greater problems existed!
And I don't see any territory that would be there without illegitimate claims (and Poland claims (and occupies) already the parts of the Free State of Danzig (eg Westerplatte)and other territories from Czechoslovakia and the German Reich )
 
Possibility. Given that during the Russian Civil War after the fall of the Romanovs, the Baltic states all separated and both Belorussia and Ukraine came within a hair's breadth of breaking away as well.

Perhaps have those governments join with the Poles to form a version of the P-L Commonwealth against the Bolsheviks. Would instantly win support from the capitalist powers and -- big AND here -- give Poland accesses to the Baltic Sea through Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. With that, the Poles might then be amicable to letting Danzig and West Prussia go back to Germany, thus resolving the major territorial issue between Warsaw and Berlin.

Perhaps call this union the "East Slavic Commonwealth" (however it would be called in the local languages).
 
Possibility. Given that during the Russian Civil War after the fall of the Romanovs, the Baltic states all separated and both Belorussia and Ukraine came within a hair's breadth of breaking away as well.

Perhaps have those governments join with the Poles to form a version of the P-L Commonwealth against the Bolsheviks. Would instantly win support from the capitalist powers and -- big AND here -- give Poland accesses to the Baltic Sea through Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. With that, the Poles might then be amicable to letting Danzig and West Prussia go back to Germany, thus resolving the major territorial issue between Warsaw and Berlin.

Perhaps call this union the "East Slavic Commonwealth" (however it would be called in the local languages).

You're describing more or less Pilsudski's "Intermarum" or "Międzymorze" plan. The big obstacle to such a plan is that everyone is too nationalistic in the era. The Lithuanians thought they got screwed in the previous Commonwealth and had poor relations with the Poles. Both the Belarussians and Ukrainians feared Poland meant to rule them, and they'd fight the Poles almost as much as they'd fight the Russians. Even the other Poles wanted to create a distinct Polish state and polonize its minorities. So it'd be very difficult to do. The zeitgeist of the times argues against it.

You might be able to have Poland win the Polish-Soviet War or some other change that allows for independent Byelorussia and Ukraine. While retaining everyone's independent, Poland is able to establish some sort of customs union and military alliance which it dominates, perhaps even with Romania and/or Hungary thrown in. Poland is able to leverage its leadership to be a great power in Europe that can realistically balance Germany and the USSR, but it won't be involved in the internal affairs of its allies and not provoke a nationalistic backlash. That could potentially work.

It likely wouldn't be called anything East Slavic. Neither the Poles nor the Baltics are Eastern Slavs. Maybe something diplomats call the Eastern Entente? Or historians refer to as the Treaty of Krakow?
 
Seems that idea's been percolating for a long time. Any idea how to push it forward post-1918? Perhaps do something to limit Pilsudski's border wars with all the neighbouring powers?

The idea was in some form or the other present since the rule of Jagellonian dynasty over PLC, Hungary and Bohemia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagiellon_dynasty

You can have Bela Kun's Hungarian Soviet state lasting a couple of more years beyond rl 1919 with strong Red Terror sweeping the nation, giving wings to any communist paranoia ordinary folk would have. And then Poland gets most of the job done of overthrowing the said state sometime in the 20's and unification takes place in the interests of both nations based on communist threat. ( Wouldn't be too odd since Poland and Hungary are very big friends since the medieval days )
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Intermarum was a pipe dream. The only way for Ukraine, Lithuania and Belarus to join Poland is through conquest, and Poland just isn't strong enough to conquer all that, if your PoD is not a major Russia screw (worse than OTL) after WW1 or with the Civil War. Still the Lithuanians, Belarussians and Ukrainians wouldn't be willing subjects, and the inevitable Polonization attempts would most likely lead to revolts.
 
Given the geography and demographics a larger Poland runs the serious risk of not being ‘’Polish’’ insofar as a major part of its OTL population were non-Poles of very dubious loyalty to the Polish state & its ham-fisted efforts to Polonaise them.

This will even further degrade Poland’s already tense relations with it’s neighbours and the Polish state ITTL will make inter-war Yugoslavia look like a beacon of intra-ethnic stability & religious tolerance.

How about restoring the borders of the Commonwealth 1569?

At some point a Russian state Bolshevik or otherwise will invade and annex most or maybe all of this ‘’Commonwealth’’ (lets face Polish Empire). And very few people in Europe would really blame them.

The idea that a relatively poor nation of about 20 million ethnic Poles can hold down massive tracts Eastern Europe, is a delusion. OTL was about as much ‘’Poland-wank’’ as Poland could handle.

You can have a crazy idea of Jozef Plisudski called "Intermarum" becoming a reality, although it is, well...you be the judge.


It'll quickly implode in a very spectacular fashion & everyone from the Germans, Soviets/Russians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks will try to grab the various bits of land they want while Romania & Hungary fight over Transylvania...
 
a major part of its OTL population were non-Poles of very dubious loyalty to the Polish state & its ham-fisted efforts to Polonaise them...
The idea that a relatively poor nation of about 20 million ethnic Poles can hold down massive tracts Eastern Europe, is a delusion. OTL was about as much ‘’Poland-wank’’ as Poland could handle.
It'll quickly implode in a very spectacular fashion...
Agreed. I think Johnny Pez had the right idea in his Drowned Baby TL: have some Poles far-sighted enough to realize this and create devolved governments. They'd face lots of resistance, but it's barely possible. Of course, if Britain and France are helping the Poles hold down the Brandenburg Devo (after defeating and dividing up Germany together), it's a lot easier.
 
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