Ahc Poland defeat Nazi germany

How plausible is this one?

Well, not much with Polish nationalists in charge of Poland, I'm afraid. People tend to stare at you weirdly when you tell them "we're allies, and by the way I'm annexing your capital/an important city of yours, with the surrounding area".
 
Without any real changes until September/August 1939, there are few things that could be done to improve polish performance, which with reaaaally good weather, might let Polish Army last from few weeks to maaaaaaybe months more. These would be not stopping mobilisation of Polish Army in August 29th, and not basing entire strategy on defending border until Allies come on white horse (which sadly was basis of the battle plan, opposed by French, yet supported by British). However, to actually have Poland defeat Germany in such case it's mainly dependant on what Western Allies (France and UK) will do. I'm also assuming that Red Army, if enters, idoes so when Poland is already dealt and done with (as per OTL). What you need is to stale German advance as long as possible and prevent decisive defeat of Polish forces until West has any ability and will to go on offense on the other border. It might end up with slightly more mobile but really similiar situation to WW1. As Poland alone might not be able to do that what about Romanians or Hungarians directly helping Poland?
 
Piłsudski's death causes a crisis and the opposition organizes mass protests. Britain and France are still in appeasement mode. Pro-German riots break out in Danzig. Hitler doesn't want to openly oppose them and thinks that there is going to be a civil war in Poland, so he takes the risk and demands a plebiscite in Danzig. The unrest in Poland ends, but Hitler can no longer back down. The not-yet-rearmed German army tries to invade but is defeated in some border battles. After two weeks it is clear that Germany is going to lose, Hitler's generals remove him and sue for peace.

In 1939 it's no longer possible for Poland to defeat Germany on its own, but I've seen a number of ideas of improving its performance. My favorite is having the German invasion occur during a period of bad weather. This helps Poland from the very beginning by allowing it to complete its mobilization without much interruption. Poor visibility makes air attacks ineffective, flooded rivers and mud paralyze armored operations. This allowes the Poles to fight their enemies on roughly equal terms. After 3 weeks the Germans have made some advances but no real breakthroughs. Stalin is still waiting to see what happens. French generals are starting to think that if Poland is effectively tying down Germany's best, and tanks and airplanes appear to have been overrated, the time has come for a serious effort instead of bad jokes like OTL's Saar Offensive...

POD is 1920 almighty.

So the Polish-Soviet War has Poland actually stand up for her allies, namely Ukraine. Poland begins to court other nations to be part of the Międzymorze Alliance. By 1938 the alliance contains, Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and Czechoslovakia. The Polish army agrees to modernize mostly in preparation for round two with the Soviets. By 1938 when the Nazis come calling for the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia, where the west wants to do the whole appeasement, Poland and the rest of the Miedzymorze alliance support Czechoslovakia and thus war breaks out over the Sudetenland. By the end of this war, it is Poland and her alliance that has emerged on top not the Nazis.

How plausible is this one? :coldsweat:

The problem with 1920 is that Poland was willing to establish a separate Ukraine but could not sustain operations so far to the east. This might have gone differently if Petlura's army had been more popular among Ukrainians, but at this point Ukraine already seen 2 years of constant revolution and war, Kiev had changed hands multiple times, and the population understandably had enough of it all. Or maybe Wrangel could have gotten lucky and managed a serious counterattack out of Crimea, diverting more of the Red Army's strength. But I don't think it can realistically happen with a 1920 PoD.
 
POD is 1920 almighty.

So the Polish-Soviet War has Poland actually stand up for her allies, namely Ukraine. Poland begins to court other nations to be part of the Międzymorze Alliance. By 1938 the alliance contains, Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, and Czechoslovakia. The Polish army agrees to modernize mostly in preparation for round two with the Soviets. By 1938 when the Nazis come calling for the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia, where the west wants to do the whole appeasement, Poland and the rest of the Miedzymorze alliance support Czechoslovakia and thus war breaks out over the Sudetenland. By the end of this war, it is Poland and her alliance that has emerged on top not the Nazis.

How plausible is this one? :coldsweat:

Not likely but probably the best shot you have. In any case quite imaginative. Good job!
 
The problem with 1920 is that Poland was willing to establish a separate Ukraine but could not sustain operations so far to the east. This might have gone differently if Petlura's army had been more popular among Ukrainians, but at this point Ukraine already seen 2 years of constant revolution and war, Kiev had changed hands multiple times, and the population understandably had enough of it all. Or maybe Wrangel could have gotten lucky and managed a serious counterattack out of Crimea, diverting more of the Red Army's strength. But I don't think it can realistically happen with a 1920 PoD.

Let's be honest here, Poland needs to get lucky more than once to have a chance of pulling this off. I think it has a short. It would be a long shot but it would take a long shot for anything to work.
 
October 25 1936 Polish commandos commit a clear act of war in the hijacking of the Soviet vessels Kine, Kursk, Neva, and Volgoles in Cartagena harbor. The Soviet crews and four Spanish treasury employees are killed after the transfer of the gold by Treasury Director-General Francisco Mendes Aspe and NKVD Head of Spanish Operations Alexander Orlov.

The ships rendezvous with a Polish support vessel and are repainted and have their lines altered - lifeboat davits are moved, awnings added, a false funnel raised - and proceed away from the normal shipping lanes west of Ireland, rounding Scotland to the north and passing through the Skagerrak November 2nd. After unloading in Gdansk they are scuttled in the Baltic until they are discovered in 1994 by a NUMA team lead by Dirk Pitt seeking the Treasury Seal left by Director Aspe with the leader of the treasury employees.

Poland uses the 510 tons of gold to purchase foreign-built armaments.

Soviet intervention in the Spanish Civil War decreases as the Republicans believe that Stalin has stolen the gold (OTL he did not defraud Spain of it, but did charge his Republican allies for all of his aid).

Poland transfers the gold to the American, British, and French governments over the next two years in exchange for lines of credit for the purchase of war materiel.

You know, it's a cool premise for a dire Clive Cussler airport-bookshop technothriller, but I think there just isn't the time to get the new production ready before September 1939.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Also the poles with the help of dirk pit raise the titanic
 
A Nazi civil war breaks out during the invasion? Say, Hitler dies, and Goring, Himmler, et al all go for each other's throats (perhaps Goring tries but fails to purge his rivals?)
 
While the challenge is to have Poland defeat Nazi Germany, what could Poland do at minimum to at least give Germany enough of a bloody nose to at least buy the British/France as well as the Soviets a bit more time before Barbarossa?
 
While the challenge is to have Poland defeat Nazi Germany, what could Poland do at minimum to at least give Germany enough of a bloody nose to at least buy the British/France as well as the Soviets a bit more time before Barbarossa?
There is nothing impossible about Polish campaign lasting longer and absolutely easiest POD for it would be change of weather in summer 1939-OTL that summer was hot and dry in Poland, make it rainy and war would last longer-Polish roads would turn into sea of mud, rivers with higher water levels would be harder to cross.
 
The challenge is to have Poland defeat the Nazi invasion before the Russian invade since I doubt the Russians would invade if Germany getting defeated


Seems ASBish but Poland might, conceivably, have stood a chance. IIRC back in the '20s Pilsudski opined that Poland shouldn't build an airforce other than a few reconnaissance planes. Evidently, he thought an airforce was a luxury Poland couldn't afford. Pilsudski's advice wasn't heeded. In the '30s Rayski, who was influenced by Douhet, was fairly influential--notwithstanding the impracticality of a small country building bombers. What if, starting c 1930, the Poles had listened to Pilsudski and not embarked on a futile attempt to match nazi air power? What if all the money and resources sunk into the air force was invested in (homemade) 75mm antiaircraft guns and plenty of antitank guns of the same caliber? With much better means to deal with panzers and the Luftwaffe, maybe Poland could've repelled the attack.
 

Geon

Donor
Here's a weird possibility.

It's 1937 - Munich. The Czechs realize their "allies" are throwing them to the German wolf. As Chamberlain negotiates "peace in our time" with Hitler Czechoslovakia cuts its own deal with its Slavic neighbor Poland. The writing is already on the wall for all to see that Poland will be the next victim of German aggression. Czechoslovakia negotiates a Prague/Warsaw pact. Poland will come to the aid of Czechoslovakia if the tanks roll. In addition an envoy is sent to the Soviet Union to sound out Stalin about the possibility of Russian "volunteers" being allowed to help their Slavic brothers in their "noble struggle against fascism." Stalin knows he will be fighting Hitler soon enough anyway and agrees to the idea.

The Poles are no fools however. They don't want the Russian wolf poking his head in the door but so far. The Poles and Czechs agree on limits of how many "volunteers" will be allowed in Poland and they will be withdrawn, all of them, once the fighting is over. In return Stalin gets greater access to Polish and Czech markets for goods and other economic incentives. For Stalin this means another opportunity to test troops and equipment, this time against the Germans themselves.

Munich ends not with "peace in our time" but a limited war in Europe. German panzers crash against the Czech tank defenses even as Czech planes bomb southern German cities and depots. The Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe are only shadows of what they will be in 1939. At the same time Poland launches a limited invasion into Germany with the objective of capturing Berlin.

Hitler quickly learns Russian "volunteers" and Russian equipment is mixed with the invading Polish units. True to form he loses it and declares war on Russia.

The reaction of the Wehrmacht and German High Command can be summed up in one word - panic! As the Germans find themselves fighting a two-front war a coup is hurriedly arranged that unseats Hitler from power. The new German government agrees reluctantly to surrender parts of southern and central Germany as well as East Prussia to the victorious "Allies." Poland and Czechoslovakia go on to form a permanent relationship that will be the beginning of a Warsaw Pact/NATO style alliance for Eastern European nations.
 
What if all the money and resources sunk into the air force was invested in (homemade) 75mm antiaircraft guns and plenty of antitank guns of the same caliber?
OTL
7447_rd.jpg
Roughly same power as the German PaK40, but shorter round, 639mm vs 714mm
 
In addition an envoy is sent to the Soviet Union to sound out Stalin about the possibility of Russian "volunteers" being allowed to help their Slavic brothers in their "noble struggle against fascism."

No way for any Soviet Soldier to set foot in Poland, 'Volunteer' or not, without causing the Polish Government to implode
 
POD should be after the 1920 war with Russia.. Poland becomes a leader in modern warfare.. Avation, mobile infantry, Fully fortified border with Russia, Building Licensed Skoda Tanks until Cheslovakia is over run by Germans, then Poland with money from UK and France builds even more tanks.. Think 3 or four mobile Polish divisions, Cavalry and mechanized infantry, with a brigade of Chezcz Skoda 35T tanks per division.
Pod should be before 1914 or better yet before 1814
 
One other issue to consider for deeper PODs is that Germany is going to see Poland re-arming and absolutely respond/counter that. It's like the unmentionable sea mammal, any change you make in one side will be countered unless the other side drinks lead paint for breakfast.
 
While the challenge is to have Poland defeat Nazi Germany, what could Poland do at minimum to at least give Germany enough of a bloody nose to at least buy the British/France as well as the Soviets a bit more time before Barbarossa?
Maybe invest more money in AT defences (perhaps at the expense of the Navy ?) Doctrine and training to employ the new assets would also be needed.

Maybe lots of small units equipped with AT weapons, mines, mortars and machine guns that fight delaying actions against the Germans and use camouflage to avoid air attack prior to engaging the German army ?

Maybe light vehicles to transport them and a lot of emphasis on movement at night and use of camouflage to avoid air attack ?
 
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They might have the coal, the iron and the lead. So now they only need to find oil, rubber, aluminium, steel additives (manganese etc.), and so on. And build the factories.
Oh, and convince the French to spend less on the Maginot so that they can bankroll the Poles. And the British, who after all jumped aboard the Polish defense's boat a bit late.

And have enough of the qualified engineers and industrial workers to design and produce all these new models of tanks, planes, guns, etc.

As an option, they can attack Germany in 1933 before Hitler’s military buildup started. The victory is still not guaranteed but the odds are better than in1939.
 
Maybe invest more money in AT defences (perhaps at the expense of the Navy ?) Doctrine and training to employ the new assets would also be needed.

Maybe lots of small units equipped with AT weapons, mines, mortars and machine guns that fight delaying actions against the Germans and use camouflage to avoid air attack prior to engaging the German army ?

Maybe light vehicles to transport them and a lot of emphasis on movement at night and use of camouflage to avoid air attack ?

Is there a way to butterfly the Polish-Czechoslovak border conflicts in order to allow for an earlier form of Polish-Czechoslovak federation or at least a mutual defense pact against Germany, years before Beneš began viewing the Soviets as the lesser evil compared to the Germans?
 
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