AHC: Poland as part of the HRE

Some kind of inheritance by a German would be the easiest bet, preferably before the PLC is formed. Please note that although genocide wouldn't be involved, Germanization like that of Bohemia OTL would likely occur.
 
Non-genocidal? Successful Otto III universal monarchy project? Other than that, Poland or Polish duchies were vassals of HRE a couple times, but outside of Silesia and Pomerania they didn't become part of HRE, and iirc only Pomerania as entity directly under emperor. Silesian duchies became vassals of Bohemia, and Lubusz land was sold to Brandenburg. Hungary when ruled by Luxemburgs or Habsburgs didnt become part of HRE. Neither did Poland when ruled by Przemyslids
 
Given that the HRE included large chunks of Italy, some slavic areas and French speakers, in addition to Dutch and German, it should be pretty easy for it to expand to include Poland as well. "You're now Catholic. Great. That means you are part of the HRE."

Other options would, of course, include Charlemagne's Empire holding together better, so 'HRE=Western Christendom' is a common mindset (among people within the HRE, of course).
 
Given that the HRE included large chunks of Italy, some slavic areas and French speakers, in addition to Dutch and German, it should be pretty easy for it to expand to include Poland as well. "You're now Catholic. Great. That means you are part of the HRE."

Other options would, of course, include Charlemagne's Empire holding together better, so 'HRE=Western Christendom' is a common mindset (among people within the HRE, of course).
At this time there was no concept of the Dutch being separate from other Germans
 
I suspect that Bohemia won't be a kingdom in this scenario and one of the Emperor's titles is something like King of the Slavs.
 
Come up with a way to include all of OTL Poland as a traditional part of the HRE.
(Nongenocidally of course).
Poland was, at times, considered as vassal of the emperor. Of course, it's was not exactly the same to say it was part of the HRE (would it because the concept of the HRE didn't really existed until the XIIth century), but it wouldn't ask for much (relatively speaking) to prevent the regalisation of Poland (or, rather, how it did happened) in face of a failure of Polanes to rise over, say, Vistulans; an imperial maintain over their wendic marches after 983, an Hungarian invasion of Vistule's basin or a Polish defeat at Cedinya.

How much, tough, the tributarisation and vassalisation of slavic petty-states or states would be effective is another question altogether (altough I could see a super-Empire pulling the same on Jutland and effectively cutting down any rival in the region having more odds to do so, while not hugely plausible), but a *Polish duchy ackowledging imperial suzerainty to enforce its own rule over its own nobility (as did Bohemia, or Brittany with late Carolingians and Capetians) doesn't strikes me as implausible with the right set of events in the late IXth and Xth centuries.
 
Poland was, at times, considered as vassal of the emperor. Of course, it's was not exactly the same to say it was part of the HRE (would it because the concept of the HRE didn't really existed until the XIIth century), but it wouldn't ask for much (relatively speaking) to prevent the regalisation of Poland (or, rather, how it did happened) in face of a failure of Polanes to rise over, say, Vistulans; an imperial maintain over their wendic marches after 983, an Hungarian invasion of Vistule's basin or a Polish defeat at Cedinya.

How much, tough, the tributarisation and vassalisation of slavic petty-states or states would be effective is another question altogether (altough I could see a super-Empire pulling the same on Jutland and effectively cutting down any rival in the region having more odds to do so, while not hugely plausible), but a *Polish duchy ackowledging imperial suzerainty to enforce its own rule over its own nobility (as did Bohemia, or Brittany with late Carolingians and Capetians) doesn't strikes me as implausible with the right set of events in the late IXth and Xth centuries.

The 12th century? I thought the HRE started with Otto I in the 10th century?
 
If you have Piast Poland fragment irreversibly during the Pagan Uprising that took place near the middle of the eleventh century, you could have Poland absorbed in as part of an extended Wendish Crusade, and the Polish Duchy/Kingdom would be a historical footnote in an area that is gradually as Germanized as modern East Germany.
 
The 12th century? I thought the HRE started with Otto I in the 10th century?
The ensemble that became the HRE appeared in the Xth century, but you didn't have a concept of HRE (I should have added "as we understand it") before the XIIth (or, arguably, the latter third of the XIth); a bit like the transition between late Republic and "Dominate" in Roman history.
When Otto is proclaimed "august emperor" (in the same vein of non-descript titles of the IXth), he still ruled over the (eastern) Frankish kingdom, albeit with an imperial rule : even at this point, imperium is a matter of personal (and litteral) charisma, not about a state. It arguably changed with the late Xth and the XIth where the mix of Biblical, Carolingian and Byzantine influence began to produce the idea of an universal empire, up to its own brand of cesaropapism with the emperor being almost equated to another pope.

It's really with Salians and the dynastical hot seat, basically with the reintroduction of Roman law as normative, and the need of highlight the permanance of state, that you really have the idea of an Holy (in the sense of sacred, in order to balance pontifical dependency) empire of the Romans, not only universal, but whom presence is mutually exclusive or inclusive of suzerainty.
Does that means that Ottonians reigned over a non-entity? Of course not : but the concept of an HRE as an universal and transcendental (respect to feudal connections) empire, and what was part of it or not was at best blur especially at the periphery : for instance, Poland (or Terra Mariana, or Teutonic State) rarely gets included as part of the empire, for good reasons tough : until the early XIIth (as for everyone around them), it's less a matter of territorial control (much less exclusiveness) than personal or familial networking.

It does help, tough, the OP : why Bohemia was considered part of the HRE eventually was because it always (or almost) was part of the imperial networking, while Poland was a bit too independent and far from imperial focuses. But have enough good luck you can prevent the unification of Poland as proposed above; and then manage to stabilize the imperial rule over slavic princialties making them part of the process of formation of the HRE not just as a feudal hegemony, but as an universal territorial empire (basically, it means you don't have to make it a full-fledged conquest or control comparable to what existed in Germany proper, but an "included" periphery).

Note that what I tried to point is true of most of western polities : but the HRE, due to its institutional specificities, was this on another level. It shouldn't be exagerated either : it was a smooth transition, without clear date where one can say "this is when HRE really begins" (the coronation of Otto I is a fine date, would it be only for the restoration of the imperial title in the west). I only brang the point to say that the IOTL suzerainty of the emperor over Poland could have easily gone deeper than just a superficial acknowledgement outside limits of an HRE that we'd have trouble spotting exactly.
 
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The King of Bohemia was once King of Poland, and Bohemia was a constitute-kingdom of the Holy Roman Empire... does that count?
Yes and no : it's more or less the grey area I was referring to.
Vratislav was made kind by Henry IV, as a personal and non-transmissible title, and he was promised the royal title in Poland more or less the same way (thanks to his matrimonial ties with Piast), essentially in order to secure the royal title against Ladislav or Ladislav's rivals ambitions. Would have it worked (which is arguably not the best time IMO), you'd likely see the royal title being left untransmitted (as it happened for Bohemia) and Poland held less as a constituent land (the very concept wouldn't have existed) but as a vassal of the emperor as Ladislav already was.
 

trajen777

Banned
Separate lith. From poland. Have german hre. Send extra forces to tutonic knights. Win b of tannenberg in 1410 . Divide up poland into dukedoms. Do what many rulers did and take large segments of the population and relocate across germany. Then move germans into poland. Have those territories report direct to the emperor.
 
Separate lith. From poland. Have german hre. Send extra forces to tutonic knights. Win b of tannenberg in 1410 . Divide up poland into dukedoms. Do what many rulers did and take large segments of the population and relocate across germany. Then move germans into poland. Have those territories report direct to the emperor.

"Ah, German cities! This is what will bring order and unity to the new lands," said no one in 15th century Europe.
 
As said and backed up nicely by LSCatilina I'm after the lands we call Poland as a traditional part of the altHRE not a conquest or later personal union.
I suspect a preRoyal Poland POD is needed. The lands of the West Slavs under this HRE would probably be "grouped" as a crown held by the Emperor, King of Slavia/Slovakia, so no Kingdom of Bohemia either.
 
This wouldn't be too hard, honestly - I'm not an expert, but it seems from my narrow reading of things that Poland's original relationship with the HRE was in many ways solidly within the German sphere, at least in the handful of decades between 966 and 1025, and there seems to be a pretty clear trajectory that would lead to it eventually becoming more like Bohemia than an independent polity. I don't think it'd take much to come up with a scenario in which the German clergy remain in control of the Polish bishops into the new millennium - possibly a more meek personality succeeding Mieszko I and the ruler of Poland never really being acknowledged as more than a dux traditionally tributary to the Emperor. Effectively Poland becomes sort of an eastern march.
 
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