AHC: Poland as a World Power

AHC: Polish Superpower/Hyperpower Status

The Challenge? Put Poland into a position where it can become a global superpower by 2050, using a PoD at or after 1025 CE.

Hard Mode: Poland becomes a superpower by 1980

Very Hard: Poland becomes a superpower by 1980, but, the Second World War or a comparable conflict must occur which Poland must win.

Impossible: Poland becomes a global hyperpower, instead of a superpower. This means that Poland must either control the entire planet or have such extensive global influence that it can indirectly or directly control all or nearly all other countries with ease.

For a little extra challenge, add in Poland being the first country to possess fission weapons or Poland being the first country to reach space.
 
Would a longer lasting commonwealth do anything? My only issue is how many useful reasources would they have such as coal,iron, oil as you think the great powers which could be classed as a super power all had descent access to theses goods plus the population to make all the stuff they need.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
If Poland claimed Muscowy perhaps and created a Triple Monarchy Poland- Lithuania- Muscowy... still very hard to get them to World power status.
 
I think yourworstnightmare is on the nail here. OTL Poland has far too few resources to be a superpower, but if it becomes the hegemon of Eastern Europe very early on and then continually expands eastward as Muscovy/Russia did IOTL it has a reasonable chance. (The obvious alternative, some kind of huge Polish colonial empire, sounds difficult to say the least.)
 
I think, if Poland avoided the Deluge, they would have a fair chance to become a super power (i.e. be in the same group as Germany, Britain, Russia, France and Spain). Up until the Deluge disrupted their institutions and gutted the population, the country was populous and relatively well governed.

Mind you, even without a Deluge, or with a Deluge, but then a run of luck post-Deluge, Poland has plenty of chances to soar, or plunge into the abyss.

fasquardon
 
Poland can be a grand power without any huge problems.

Have the Poles be more successful during the Times of Trouble and manage to install a puppet Czar in Russia. Russia's development towards a

Have the Poles avoid the Cossack rising, the Deluge (both the Russian and the Swedish) and have Jan III Sobieski living longer, centralising and easing the plight of the serfs and creating a lasting dynasty - have Poland-Lithuania stay out of the Great Nordic War (if there even is one with the Russians being much less poweful).

Austro-Polish alliance against the Ottomans should be possible. Poland-Lithuania rather than Russia should be able to get to the Sea of Azov, get Eastern Ukraine (and its future coal and iron deposits) and kill the Crimean Khanate.

With Russia much weaker and a strong Austro-Polish alliance there's no partitions. Austria maintains a strong grip on southern Germany. Prussia is limited to contending the leadership of Northern Germany with Sweden and Denmark.

Russia is too weak to expand across the central Asian Khanates and defeat the Circassians. They remain a moslty landlocked Asian country with its only port in Archangelsk.

Once the industrial revolution roll around, the Commonwealth has good coal deposits aroudn Krakow and in the Donetsk basin and decent iron supplies. Excellent waterways with the Don, Dniepr, Dnistr and Vistula will help a lot.
 
I've also wondered if a longer Russian domination of Poland might lead to a great power Poland - OTL, the era of Russian domination of the Commonwealth's politics in the 18th Century were apparently some of the best years of the Commonwealth. So say a stronger Russia or a weaker Prussia means that the state of affairs continues into the Industrial Revolution. It could lead to... An interesting 19th Century.

fasquardon
 
The OP used the word 'superpower', not 'great power'. Great power Poland is easy to achieve, I agree. But superpower status implies a level of power equal to the USSR and the USA in the Cold War period (i.e. strong enough to defeat multiple great powers on those great powers' own home turf far away from the superpower's home turf), which neither Germany nor France nor the United Kingdom has ever held.
 
I think if August (II) manages to create a hereditary claim to the Commonwealths throne (butterflying the War of Polish Sucession).

The next steps might be a Polish/Saxon participation in the Austrian War of Sucession - to join Saxony and the Polish Mainland with the aquisition of Silesia (OTL FRidrich II of Prussias role).

From there the Polish/Sxon/Lithuanian Commonwealth is a major force in the East.
 
To become a superpower, you'll need to have good control over the seas, that is a given. It's why landlocked countries rarely become great powers, if ever. Poland has a very short coastline (around 400km) and the only ways out into the rest of the world's oceans are through strategic naval chokepoints like the English Channel, the GUIK gap, among a few others (not to mention sailing through the Arctic Circle and circumnavigating the entire Eurasian continent).

So, Poland will have to conquer a lot of neighboring territory (thus allocating territory for agricultural use) and expand its coastline and population. Shipbuilding will also become very important here; it's why England and the UK got as powerful as they did.

Perhaps a much more deadlier Black Death (something along the lines of TYORAS) allows Poland to conquer formerly-inhabited territory and the like while at the same time remaining unscathed from the plagues. I'm not an epidemiologist, so I'm not too sure how plausible that would be. Best case scenario is Poland achieves UK-like power, but as for USA/USSR-like status, that seems very unlikely.

Regards, Laq'. :)
 
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Could an Intermarium coming to fruition achieve the OP? Though you'd have to muddle up European politics severely to give it a shot.
 
An early PoD which comes to mind is avoiding a division of Poland like the OTL one of the 12th century. Instead of having to undergo the long process of reunification and ultimately failing to regain important areas Poland has more time to establish itself as a regional power and doesn't need to lose Pomerania/Pomerelia and Silesia at all, but can expand instead.

With later PoDs, including Muscovy within the commonwealth is the most obvious way to superpower status I can think of. Although with PoDs so far back I believe there are many ways to achieve this goal.

I've also wondered if a longer Russian domination of Poland might lead to a great power Poland - OTL, the era of Russian domination of the Commonwealth's politics in the 18th Century were apparently some of the best years of the Commonwealth. So say a stronger Russia or a weaker Prussia means that the state of affairs continues into the Industrial Revolution. It could lead to... An interesting 19th Century.

Russian domination was only fesible as long as Poland was weak. Those "best years" :)D) led to the situation in which any attempt at reform would lead to Russian (and Prussian - I hear Frederick II was terrified of a reformed Poland) attempts to destroy the Commonwealth, which proved successful. If your suggestion involves the commonwealth holding out until the Industrial Revolution with an 18th century PoD, a Napoleonic victory would give better results.
 
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Cut down on the corruption and decadence of the Commonwealth elites.

As for "Poland the Hyperpower": Mega commonwealth extending all across the European continent and Siberia.
 
Also, limit the nobility, and remove the universal veto from their parliament: the Polish nobility was immensely bloated, and every one of them had the veto, since they needed unanimous votes to decide anything (which made it easy for foreign nations to paralyse Poland - just bribe one nobleman).
 
Russian domination was only fesible as long as Poland was weak. Those "best years" :)D) led to the situation in which any attempt at reform would lead to Russian (and Prussian - I hear Frederick II was terrified of a reformed Poland) attempts to destroy the Commonwealth, which proved successful. If your suggestion involves the commonwealth holding out until the Industrial Revolution with an 18th century PoD, a Napoleonic victory would give better results.

Well, Russia wanted Poland politically and militarily weak - political and militarily weakness doesn't have to translate into economic and demographic weakness.

But yes, since political and military power are generally necessary for being a super-power, if I were making a TL about this, I would have Poland throw off Russian domination during the French Revolution or the age of nationalism in the mid-19th Century.

Also, limit the nobility, and remove the universal veto from their parliament: the Polish nobility was immensely bloated, and every one of them had the veto, since they needed unanimous votes to decide anything (which made it easy for foreign nations to paralyse Poland - just bribe one nobleman).

This is true, however, the liberum veto wasn't nearly as much of a problem as legend says. It only became an issue during the 18th Century, when Poland was too weak to resist foreign intervention. Up until then, the Polish government worked as well or better than most contemporaries. Looking at how the Ottoman, French, Spanish or English governments worked can be quite shocking - and these countries all managed to be great powers at the same time.

fasquardon
 
The primary problem I have with Poland controlling enough territory is less with actually taking the territory as it is holding onto it, at least from what I can see. Poland is, as has been said, stuck between some very powerful nations. Poland will probably need to hold on to Muscovy to eliminate Russia before it becomes too big to stop, but that still leaves Prussia/Germany to the West.

Holding onto Muscovy might also help alleviate the problem of resources in the long term. Muscovy might not be all of Russia, but it's an important part of it and a decent jumping off point for the rest of the region. If Poland could keep people in the area happy enough, holding onto the wealth of resources in Russia could be possible, and, with those resources, they would actually have the industry needed to maintain a proper military and thus avoid situations like the beginning of the Second World War.

For that to happen, though, Poland/the commonwealth would either have to be made to look like a savior to the majority of the Russian populace or avoid revolt in some other way. Obviously, though, holding onto all of Russia is no easy task. A powerful military obviously helps, but keeping up with the technology game is also crucial. If the Commonwealth/Poland were able to develop nuclear weapons before other nations, that would prove helpful as a deterrent, though getting them a few years after its original inventors could also be sufficient. If they were to become a hegemony in Eastern Europe, and provide quality living conditions that would keep Slavic scientists in the country and attract foreigners to them.
 
Why the heck everybody seems to have such strange ideas? Poland was Great Power for bigger part of XVII century. Avoiding deluge, which depopulated realm strongly and caused loss at war with Russia (which was beaten at almost every field battle) is more than enough to keep PLC strong. While on its own it won't make it on par (in the long range) with USA, PLC will surely be as strong or even stronger than pre- WWII Germany (which might have troubles forming in its OTL shape- Deluge took big part in Prussia independence). And Russia will only suffer with such strong opponent in the west.
 
Originally posted by Jeddaven
The primary problem I have with Poland controlling enough territory is less with actually taking the territory as it is holding onto it, at least from what I can see. Poland is, as has been said, stuck between some very powerful nations. Poland will probably need to hold on to Muscovy to eliminate Russia before it becomes too big to stop, but that still leaves Prussia/Germany to the West.

But those powerful nations weren't always that powerful. Germany was disunited and busy with internal fights for centuries; Prussia might have been crushed/incorporated by Poland at the beginning of XVIth century, when it was still a monastic state of the Teutonic Order; after that it remained Polish vassal until 1650s. Moscow might have failed to unite Russian lands or be totally destroyed by Tatars.
The fact that a state was powerful for quite some time in history or is powerful now, doesn't mean it had been destined to become a power. Let's say Poland incorporates Prussia before 1525; no Prussia to unite Germany. Some other German state might achieve it - or perhaps not and suddenly we might have not a German power but two, three or seven German states. Or Muscovian army is destroyed in the battle of Kulikovo. No Muscovy and suddenly Russia is disunited. Considering that POD is about 1025 (the coronation of Poland's first king, Boleslaus the Brave and his death in the same year) we have almost 1000 years of history to change and shape. So yes, Poland might become a power - although culturally, ethnically and probably even linguistically it would be a very different nation that it is today IOTL.
 
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