AHC/POD/WI: Celtic Empire in Europe with the Roman Empire

Albert.Nik

Banned
So in this timeline,I am proposing a Celtic Empire that would spread across Northern and Western Half of France,Britain,Ireland,Scotland,Germania North,Parts of today's Denmark and Scandinavia,parts of Poland and Czechia(these are the extent of the places where Celts lived) who would extend upto the Western end of Steppe and try expanding further taking in some Scythians. The Germanic tribes may join the Empire as well. The Romans,on the other hand in this timeline,concentrate on Italy,Southern and Central Balkans,Southern France(parts of),Iberia,Levant,Middle East,Anatolia and South Caucasus. How would this scenario work out for all the later events in Europe,Asia and Persia?
 
The biggest problem would be getting Celts to unite. Despite sharing language, religion and culture; the Celts never thought of themselves as "Celts". Instead, they thought of themselves as members of a particular tribe and others, no matter how similar, were outsiders. It would be rare for two tribes to unite, even against a common enemy. Getting multiple tribes to unite under one ruler for any length of time is about as likely as me getting a date with Emma Watson.

As CELTICEMPIRE (perfect name for this topic, BTW) suggest, Vecingetorix might have had a chance if he had beaten Caesar then convinced other tribal leaders to accept him as High King of Gaul or something to prevent further Roman threats.
He might have had a chance....
...and I might get a call from Emma tomorrow.
 
The problem is that what we call "Celts" (which is vastly different from what Greeks called Celts) didn't really existed as such : people might have shared linguistical and meta-cultural features but that was no more the case than Scythians and Persians, Latins and Samnites, etc. The idea that large linguistic groups share a same identity and destiny is definitely more rooted in nationalist romantism along pan-Slavism, pan-Germanism, and of course pan-Celticism.
Simply said, there was probably no sense of kinship between ancient Goidelic peoples in Ireland and Antolia's Galatians. Rather, you had more or less firmly defined regional ensemble (Gauls, possibly Brittons and Celtiberians, Galatians, etc.) which while sharing a same linguistic group and broad Halstattian/La Tenian material culture, didn't thought themselves alike, and didn't proceeded from the same civilizational elan.

Maybe have Vercingetorix be successful?
I think it would go against political uses and considerations of Gaulish civilisation from one hand, and the nature of Vercingetorix' coalition.

Long story short, Gaulish political ensemble was defined by what Caesar call "cities" which should be understood as states defined by a territory and obedience of various tribes under one political center, thinking themselves as sharing a same geopolitical horizon thanks to regional assemblies. For instance the Council of all Gaul was probably a regular enough assembly since the IIIrd century BCE (possibly earlie, but it gets speculative there, up to the Vth century BCE) where peoples send representatives to discuss regional matters (both military alliance against a particular threat and trade agreements, for example) and choose "patron" if needed to execute and lead (how much was it respected, however...). You had as well regional assemblies which were defined by sense of regional kinship (but as well natural features, such as rivers and mountains, which is probably druidic in origin) : Celts, Belgians, Aremoricans, etc.

Fast-forwards to Vercingetorix, the Arvern leader is basically proposing to a new Council his leadership (and Arvern's) leadership into a new coalition led against Romans. This is not a personal empire (not even an Arvern Empire) but a leadership on various and quite independent-minded Gaulish states (the comparison with Ancient Greeks is often brought, as we're talking of peoples acknowledging a same cultural identity, acting as part of a same political horizon, but never ever considering giving up their political and immediate cultural identity). Would Vercingetorix be successful, and while it would have boosted significantly Arverni's prestige back to a position they had in the IInd century (as leaders of Celtic Gaul, if not Gaul as a whole) you'd have to count with other powerful peoples (notably Aedui, which IOTL were pissed enough not being chosen as patron people to more or less actively sabotage Vercingetorix' effort) and Arverns own political life (Vercingetorix was not the only leader of Arverns : pro-Roman Epasnactos was really powerful too and even in Alesia his coinage was more represented than Vercingetorix's)

Regional state-building isn't out of question, but would probably look like a non-royal variant on high-kingship that began to take form by the Vth/IIIrd century BCE, based on regional lines. It definitely implies no Roman superpower to meddle there, tough, as it was really what caused cultural decline IOTL.
Arverns IOTL had an acknowledged dominance over Celtic Gaul (roughly Seine-Rhine-Garonne limits), which allowed them to build-up a dominance mid-way between confederation and hegemony.With time, you could see enough state-building (in a decentralized fashion) to the point Celtica and "Arvernia" would become more and more associated (and even if it fails, with enough structural build-up that the next candidate would have an easier and quicker go at pulling the same tricks)
 
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Albert.Nik

Banned
To clarify,all Indo-Europeans were tribal,not just Celts or Germans. From the Indo-Aryans in the East to the Celts and Germanic and Celtic in the west,it was almost the same. Early Hindu scriptures attest this too. So we need a POD where the people in question would become urbanized.
 
To clarify,all Indo-Europeans were tribal,not just Celts or Germans. From the Indo-Aryans in the East to the Celts and Germanic and Celtic in the west,it was almost the same. Early Hindu scriptures attest this too. So we need a POD where the people in question would become urbanized.
I think you're confusing tribal social structure as a lesser stage of social evolution : tribes aren't contradictory with sophisticated social ensembles as Greek or Roman social organisation makes aboundantly clear. Similarily, these groups wereintegrated and whole part of various Gaulish, Celtiberians, Brittons, etc. organisations. and certainly wasn't contradictory with urbanization : oppida for instance were an original urban build-up that were centered on tribe to the point tending to prevent apparition of villages in its spheres since the Vth century BCE to the IInd. It's hard to avoid pointing the obvious, namely that tribes can remain a basic social features while you have a dynamic urbanization.

The point isn't to outgrow "tribalism" (which, to be entierely honest, is a really flawed perspective ethnographically wise, especially if we argue this is an universal stage where "it's all the same") but to understand its integration into various state-buildings.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
What I mean is,pure tribal structure is a rural kind of economy which are more like smaller city states or town state or something. For example,Greeks were tribal when they set off from the PIE homeland in the Danube but quickly,they came in contact with earlier civilizations (I call them Basque like ethnicities) and they incorporated urbanization establishing Athens,Sparta,Ancyra,Iconium,Miletus,Decapolis,Antioch,etc. Indians were still mostly rural with rural economies up to very recently. As Mahatma Gandhi said,"India's soul is her villages". Villages are held in very high regard. Every aspect of this cultures points to the early Indo-Europeans. However,cities did exist and empires were headed from there,but soul was still in the Villages. Indo-Greeks were the only peoples who were a completely urban culture empire in India I know after the IVC went away. Persians and Medes were tribes as well. They learnt urbanization from earlier natives like Sumerians,Gutians and Elamites,etc. Romans from Etruscans,Greeks from Minoans and others,Hittites from Hattians,Mitanni Aryans from Caucasian Hurrians,Armenians from Caucasian Urartians,etc.
I want to know about the Basque history and culture to build this timeline as I presume all those peoples are very close to Basque who might have lived all across Europe,Middle East,Caucasus,North Africa and Parts of India. Anybody Basque or knowing about them can come in to this thread,please?
 
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@Albert.Nik
I really think you're confusing a whole lot of different things (I do not say that in bad part against you, really), which don't always have some basis in ethnography, archeology or history. A tribe is, really strictly and broadly, an ensemble of humans groups related by common assumed ancestry and tied together by singular features (leadership, sanctuary, economic management, etc).
It's not particularly tied with rural economy (as said, you have many examples of proto-urbanisation based on tribes without much rural villages), it's not synonymous for "ancient peoples" (Persians and especially Medes were more confederations and coalitions initially), or villages. It's a social grouping, nothing more, nothing less.

For instance, in the case of Celtic world, Gaulish peoples (cenetloi?) had an integrity of their own and were made of various tribes (teutas) : Rutenoi were a people, themselves divided into 4 or 5 tribes such as Albigenses whom identity was besed on their agglomeration. Or Volcae, with Neroncenes (based on the oppidum of Nero). I'd point furthermore than oppida urbanization is largely independent of a previous super-Basque substructure or even Greek determining influence (which still played a role in the formative development).

Then, giving that one good definition of tribes are they tend to be acephalic (without clear and definitive chief) and achrematic (no social division based on material wealth or ownership) groups (which doesn't mean leadership-free or without social hierarchy based on "mana" or prestige), it appears that PIE population in Balkans and Anatolia first developed quickly forms of chiefdoms (simple or complex) or even in the case of Hittites state-building. It's arguably a murky area and these modelisations are nothing but heavily discussed : but it's effectively why such concepts should be handled cautiously and not thrown in the face of an unsuspecting world, especially with the connotation (mostly derogatory) of some words (which since some years already isn't restricted to ultra-conservative historiography, but a certain regressive progressism using "tribalism" without much after thought. But I digress).

I'd really advise Testart's L'évolution des sociétés, for what matter prehistoric societies, but AFAIK it's untranslated.
Service's Origins of the State and Civilization is a bit old now, but still pretty interesting as a first basis of definion of band/tribe/chiefdom (even if I rather agree with Testart's critique there). I think some basics from Colin Renfrew and people following his sytematisation (such as Richard Hodges, from which I borrowed the linked description of chiefdoms and state-buildings in the paragraph before) is nice.

EDIT : As for Basques (which is a bit of an anachronism, like calling Iberians Spaniards) apart from the pretty much ill-considered and much criticized Vasconic theory, the consensus is that it was an isolate as far as we can tell. It's probable European populations had little to do with proto-Aquitains.
 
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Albert.Nik

Banned
@LSCatilina I never talked about tribes being inferior or anything. What I mean in context is that in a Purely tribal economy,outside influences and exposure would be limited and people are more or less very homogeneous. City,however would have a more diverse set of people and more influence and exposure outside. But a tribe can live in a city. For example: A person can say,I come from the Gaulish tribe Gx and so does three of neighbouring households. Another person can say,I come from the Anatolian Tribe Ax,five of my tribe members live on the lane opposite to our house. Both these people of different tribes could be best friends or husband and wife. We all live in the Roman city of Ephesus. I,a Gaulish Celt met my Anatolian wife in the forum festival,he can say. Our children will be brought up with exposure of both Celts and Anatolians on both sides. That's a city. All the people get together if each tribes festival is organized.
Coming to Basque,I hypothesize that they are remnant of Neolithic Farmer communities originating in the Anatolia and Caucasus and looked bit like today's Basque and stretched over Europe,ME,NA,Iran and parts of Indian subcontinent with each speaking a language isolates or like that. Basque,Gutians,Hurro-Urartians,Minoans,Hattics,Sumerians,IVC people,etc might be of that ethnicity and origin itself.
Burusho are the remnant of a Basque like Caucasian people in India/Pakistan in the Kashmir region and are present on both Indian and Pakistani side of the the LOC.
 
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@LSCatilina I never talked about tribes being inferior or anything.
Didn't said you were necessarily or consciously : but you use as a stage of social sophistication, rather than a social grouping. it's arguably both, that both survives into later social developments and actually can thrive within.

What I mean in context is that in a Purely tribal economy,outside influences and exposure would be limited and people are more or less very homogeneous.
Tribal economy doesn't hold much water to it, tough : there's no more typical tribal economy than you have chiefdom economy, or typical national economy. It doesn't help that tribes are particularily unstable ensemble because they're defined toward their beighbour and in constant re-arrengement. For instance, groups A, B and C form a tribe B' due to their dominance, and eventually due to shifts, different alliance, inner conflicts, etc, B' tribe end ups being formed of A,B and D while C is included into another tribal ensemble or goes its own way. It's actually because you have these humans groups reciecing outside influence that they feel the necessity to resort to greater-scale identification in spite of regular reshuffle.
The idea that tribes, by essence, are in an ethnographic statis bubble without outside influence suddenly confronted to cosmopolitan cities isn't supported by evidence. First urbanisation is tribal, and tends to remain at least partly so until confronted to sophisticated state-building : until Roman times, a city is often associated to a particular tribe either dominant into a people, either part of it.

A person can say,I come from the Gaulish tribe Gx and so does three of neighbouring households.
A tribe isn't made up of households or families, but larger scale groups. What you're thinking of are either bands or clans.

Now, we have a lot of evidence of cities being identified with tribes up to the name of the city and the name of the tribe being the same. Either it's a kind of coincidence, either the differenciation tribe/city isn't nearly as radical you may think it is. Synoecism being fairly common in Ancient Med. you do end up with various tribal elements being mixed up. Thing is, it's nothing new : as said before tribes are a spontaneously unstable ensemble continuously redefining itself, loosing and including different groups over time. What happens in the process of urbanisation and synoecism isn't radically different.
Eventually, it's happening as such because the radical difference happened earlier during the transition between tribal societies as acephalic and achrematic socities, to chiefdoms (simple and complex) that are hierarchic and chrematic formations over the first ones. Urbanisation is only one feature of this transition which generally ends up with a new identity just as every group : Neroncens are issued from various pre-Celtic, Celtic and Iberized elements but considered themselves as one teuta, tribe. I think you may mix-up material culture, families/clan, tribes and chiefdoms there.

For most of Antiquity : a city = a tribe = a city(outside Gaul, you can see this with Athenian demoi) The growing disassociation came less from urban brassage eventually (as new comers are generally included) than state-building,with the people of one city becomes dominant politically over its sphere. Habitants of Latium became Romans not because they were "detribalized" or mixed-up, but because Rome came to dominate its hinterland, then beyond etc, making its identity dominant (even if not necessarily monopolizing). Basically state-building allows institutions to have a direct link with populations which tend to identify more and more with these rather than tribal identities. So, yes, cities such as Roman Ephesus aren't tribal but we're talking of a really, really long process that didn't even began to appear by the time we can still speak about PIE peoples and culture, or as it's the topic, Celtic meta-civilisations.

I'll leave at that, if you allow me, because I think we're talking in circles there.

Coming to Basque,I hypothesize that they are remnant of Neolithic Farmer communities originating in the Anatolia and Caucasus and looked bit like today's Basque and stretched over Europe,ME,NA,Iran and parts of Indian subcontinent with each speaking a language isolates or like that. Basque,Gutians,Hurro-Urartians,Minoans,Hattics,Sumerians,IVC people,etc might be of that ethnicity and origin itself.
This have nothing to really base itself on, even if it's regularily enough proposed since the XIXth century.
In all likeness, proto-Aquitains were already becoming an isolate in Late Neholitic, and possibly related to Mesolithic populations. There's literally no averred linguistic, genetic or material links between these cultures.
Not that Basques were isolated : there was a study in 2015 that would point a tie with early Neolithic populations. Of course, being genetics, it gives us next to nothing regarding culture (material or not), and is mostly identified with populations of Iberic peninsula which belong to different cultural groups as far as we can tell.
 
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Artaxerxes

Banned
Tribal identity is, despite attempts by members of tribes themselves, somewhat fluid in antiquity. It's more modern attempts to build an identity around it as a response to conquest that it's become a more fixed idea.

The larger tribes in Europe were very much coalitions rather than hard and fixed identities, the tribes on the borders of the Roman empire waxed, waned and merged. After the Romans left Britain new tribal identities came together but still respected tribal borders.

The huns were at one point a terrifying tribe but now we're hard pressed to even find evidence of them in the record or words derived from them.
 
As an alternative to Vercingetorix or some other Gaul managing to form an Empire, what happens if Aurelian is unsuccessful at returning the Gallic Empire to the fold and the Empire dissolves into various successor states c. 270 CE, of which the most important are Palmyra and the Gallic Empire? The Gallo-Romans have heavy Celtic ancestry and even cultural influence, and hostility with Rome would definitely drive culture back in the Celtic direction, either as official policy or simply by separation from the Roman cultural hub. Gallo-Latin becomes even more heavily Celticized than OTL, and the Gallic Empire, not having to worry about as many frontiers as Rome (particularly if they manage to negotiate a lasting peace or if Rome completely falls apart in the 3rd C. Crisis securing OTL Provence and Languedoc), slowly expands east, securing itself roughly along the Vistula, with its borders ultimately resembling OTL Carolingian Empire + British Isles? Whether/how this construct can survive the Great Migrations is another question, but by borrowing Roman state apparatus you have yourself at least a century or two of a heavily though not completely Celtic empire.
 
@Arcavius

You'd be hard-pressed finding something really Celtic in the so-called Gallic Empire (which is definitely an historiographical name, people then considered as a Roman Empire usurpation that didn't made it to Italy), and the Gallo part of Gallo-Roman culture is essentially about geography with very little immaterial cultural legacy.
Sure, Gallo-Roman landowners, rethors, local elites were essentially descended from Gauls, but they tought themselves as Romans at this point and, giving the archeological and historical sources, were increasingly so since the conquest (in no small part because they were integrated into Roman economical and cultural sphere decades before the conquest).

A certain revival of Gaulish culture (mostly bastardized with important Roman influence) isn't unthinkable, but without major and quick collapse of Rome in the Ist century CE at latest...
 
@Arcavius

You'd be hard-pressed finding something really Celtic in the so-called Gallic Empire (which is definitely an historiographical name, people then considered as a Roman Empire usurpation that didn't made it to Italy), and the Gallo part of Gallo-Roman culture is essentially about geography with very little immaterial cultural legacy.
Sure, Gallo-Roman landowners, rethors, local elites were essentially descended from Gauls, but they tought themselves as Romans at this point and, giving the archeological and historical sources, were increasingly so since the conquest (in no small part because they were integrated into Roman economical and cultural sphere decades before the conquest).

A certain revival of Gaulish culture (mostly bastardized with important Roman influence) isn't unthinkable, but without major and quick collapse of Rome in the Ist century CE at latest...

Not necessarily, IMO. We forget that the majority of the elites had more emphasis on the Roman aspect of their identity, and Romanization was likely stronger among the upper class. Archaeological evidence from the region shows substantial syncretism among large-scale temples, etc., suggesting that the process was even less complete for the majority of people, i.e. that there was a "cultural reserve" which might begin to influence the elite over enough time, certainly not an unheard of process throughout history even if rarer than the alternative. Furthermore, with the British Isles in their entirety--which themselves were only scarcely Romanized, as evidenced by the fact that Welsh is a Brythonic language, not Romance, the demographics will be further shifted towards a Celtic legacy.

Or, if that's not enough for you, have Aurelian be a less-gifted strategist who has to fight is way up through Gaul in a much longer campaign. Gallic emperors begin using Britain as their base, resulting in both a shift to Romano-Briton traditions and a large influx of barely-Romanised troops into Gaul, resulting in a major shift.

Of course there will be an admixture of Roman and Celtic culture in the Empire. But I think that the difference between Gallic and Gallo-Roman culture would likely be lesser than the difference between Gaelic and Galatian Celtic cultures.
 

Kaze

Banned
Maybe have Vercingetorix be successful?

Would work, but I fear that the Romans might arrange a revenge legion to march into Gaul - as the IRL legion that was sent into Germany after the loss of Varus' legions (as well as the assassination of Herman). I would go earlier with Brennus - "Vae victis" leads to a Celtic Empire instead of falling apart.
 
Archaeological evidence from the region shows substantial syncretism among large-scale temples, etc., suggesting that the process was even less complete for the majority of people, i.e. that there was a "cultural reserve" which might begin to influence the elite over enough time, certainly not an unheard of process throughout history even if rarer than the alternative.
This syncretism was rather superficial, tough, and in spite of Gaulish names the gods they were dedicated to had sometimes, they were definitely Roman in structure and thought, quite far from previously attested Gaulish public cults (which were already declining at this point) or private cults (the elite that were using these having changing identity and focus quite quickly). Even concerning the majority of people, the elite cultural/institutional change was quick enough to concern them as well, as landowners became in less than two generations villa owners from big farmers.
While Gaulish is mentioned up to the Vth century, it was fairly peripheral and past the Ist century I simply don't see evidence of survival of Gaul material or immaterial culture; at best some heavy Roman reinterpretation (for instance, depiction of Gods in Gallo-Roman period is essentially coming from Roman cultural depictions, virtually unknown before) or recycling. Have you something particular in mind?

Furthermore, with the British Isles in their entirety--which themselves were only scarcely Romanized, as evidenced by the fact that Welsh is a Brythonic language, not Romance, the demographics will be further shifted towards a Celtic legacy.
Britain was romanized, but we should be clear about what romanisation is : we're talking IMo about a complex cultural process ranging from straight-up acculturation to creolisation. Obviously, it's rather the latter that happened in Britain, but it was fairly dynamic and the crisis of the IIIrd century even brang the provinces to being more deeply romanized due to a regionalisation focus and a lesser dependence on military structures. If we have a surviving Roman state spawning in western Romania and managing to hold on Britain this process would continue instead turning into a utterly ruined society as IOTL. We'd be talking of something close enough to Armorican Brittons of Gaul at least in a good part of the island IMO.

Gallic emperors begin using Britain as their base, resulting in both a shift to Romano-Briton traditions and a large influx of barely-Romanised troops into Gaul, resulting in a major shift.
You mean, like Bretons' ancestors? The problem wasn't they weren't Romanized or not, they basically were, and rather they weren't really enframed trough imperial state structures. You have as well the issue that Britain was unable to sustain a large imperial army (hence why various usurpers all tried to make a grab attempt at Gaul).I agree that ITTL, Roman Britain would look like partly as a creolized Roman-Brittonic culturally, but would it be demographically, there would be no comparison to be made with Roman Gaul that was increasingly romanized since even before the conquest.

Of course there will be an admixture of Roman and Celtic culture in the Empire. But I think that the difference between Gallic and Gallo-Roman culture would likely be lesser than the difference between Gaelic and Galatian Celtic cultures.
Probably, but because even ITTL, Gaul would be completely romanized, and Britain significantly romanized into a creole culture. Less because of the, and I agree there, really important closeness between Brittonic and Gallic cultures before the Ist century BCE.

Basically, a more successful "Gallic Empire" or "Brittanic Empire" is essentially a western Roman Empire which would have to make an attempt at grabbing Rome to legitimize itself or slowly perish.
 
I think it would go against political uses and considerations of Gaulish civilisation from one hand, and the nature of Vercingetorix' coalition.

I certainly agree that it's unlikely to happen. But if it could happen, Vercingetorix would be the guy to at least start some sort of centralized state among the Celtic people in Gaul, which could maybe expand in the future.
 
I certainly agree that it's unlikely to happen. But if it could happen, Vercingetorix would be the guy to at least start some sort of centralized state among the Celtic people in Gaul, which could maybe expand in the future.
Thing is, I simply don't see how you could jump from heavily disputed leardership of a Pan-Gallic ensemble, to leader of a centralized state of Gaul. It's a bit, if you allow me the comparison, wondering how Pausanias, the leader of the pan-Hellenic coalition against Persians could pull up some centralized Greek state out of it.
I understand that you or other can consider this possible even if unlikely : but from what I know and understand (and possibly be wrong on this) of Gallic states, politics and political culture...It's not like such coalitions and assemblies were new : Arverns beneficied from being the patron people of Celtica at least since the IIIrd century up to the Ist century, and they didn't really managed to pull something looking as a centralisation of their hegemony, let alone Gaul.
As Greeks before them, Gauls simply didn't considered their cultural and social kinship went against their own political identity as Arverns, Aedui, Sequani, etc. In the best of cases, I could see Vercingetorix' success in -52 being a Gaulish equivalent to Persian wars (which is a TL deserving to be done, and it's basically and Arverns pulling an Athens on Gaul with Aedui in the role of Sparta/allies of Rome.

@MrGreyOwl does something roughly similar in his own TL, and quite interestingly.
 

Vuu

Banned
I doubt there was even a unified celtic language - but that is less of a problem


I guess that the following could occur: like how the Latins got influenced by the Greeks, a Celt tribe in southern France gets influenced similarly - there's Massalia to spread civilization and trade inland. Then you have one group take over all the other groups and form some kind of a Gallic state

they would probably be more influential than Rome simply because there's no natural border like the Alps that makes logistics difficult. This could cause the massive weakening of Rome, confining it to Italy
 
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