AHC: Peerless Air Ministry
- Thread starter perfectgeneral
- Start date
Yes the Supermarine type 318 was not a total loss but work had already stopped due to the reasoning that the RAF had the Sterling, Halifax and the Manchester entering production and the Type 318 offered no great advantage and also had the problem that it did not have a single bomb bay but had bomb cells in the wings and even the engine nacelles, This whilst permitting an impressive total bomb load seriously limited the maximum size of each bomb.
ITTL Barnes Wallis's, ' A Note on a method of attacking the axis power' Also contained a description of a new Victory bomber based an amalgam on Mitchel's 318 design and Barnes Wallis's lessons learnt on the design of the Warwick.
The prototype four engined Manchester is due to fly before Christmas and all bomber production is already allocated so fortunately the 318 will even ITTL be stillborn,
Now who is reading my notes? long range spitfire will be making an appearance and hopefully the reasoning behind it will be plausible.
TTL as of late 1940 Supermarine are preoccupied with getting the Spitfire Mark III ready for service.
ITTL Barnes Wallis's, ' A Note on a method of attacking the axis power' Also contained a description of a new Victory bomber based an amalgam on Mitchel's 318 design and Barnes Wallis's lessons learnt on the design of the Warwick.
The prototype four engined Manchester is due to fly before Christmas and all bomber production is already allocated so fortunately the 318 will even ITTL be stillborn,
Now who is reading my notes? long range spitfire will be making an appearance and hopefully the reasoning behind it will be plausible.
TTL as of late 1940 Supermarine are preoccupied with getting the Spitfire Mark III ready for service.
Will the long range spitfire have the ferry range to go direct from gibraltar to Malta? This and the will to deploy them would vastly change the odds when the Luftwaffe joins the air campaign there. overall, having more and better fighters available mixed With more sensible deployment of them will see a far better situation in the Med. even if the Greek mainland is lost, I can foresee even greater losses for the Luftwaffe in taking Crete. As for Malta- every extra mile of ferry range the fighters have is another mile less the Med Fleet spends in contested waters. I’d expect to see RN losses reduce in line with the additional ferry range.
PTL,
Well done, you are definitely reading my notes!!! My lap top was hacked some weeks ago, luckily my secure vault files were not breached, was that you!?!? i will now have to bring that post forward.
Well done, you are definitely reading my notes!!! My lap top was hacked some weeks ago, luckily my secure vault files were not breached, was that you!?!? i will now have to bring that post forward.
At one time during the 1941 fighter sweeps Fighter Command came to Dr RV Jones (Air Intelligence) asking him to investigate German Radars ability to detect bombs in aircraft. Their reasoning - Luftwaffe fighters would not intercept pure fighter sweeps but would intercept when bombers were included in the sweep.
Jones reply - What speed do pure fighter sweeps fly at and what speed when accompanied by bombers.
He recommended that all sweeps fly at the same speed,
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Seems that Suffolk to Berlin return, Cornwall to Gib and Gib to Malta are all about 1100 miles. Very convenient.
Escort Spitfire - a missed opportunity for longer reach? - Royal Aeronautical Society
Could Supermarine's iconic fighter have been modified to escort US bombers all the way to Berlin and back? Paul Stoddart examines some development options for the Spitfire and suggests what might have been achieved.
www.aerosociety.com
Seems entirely doable. Better that you don't have the combat radius for Berlin TBH, it'll force them to stick to the Ruhr.
OTL a major problem with long range spitfires was that Portal as CAS, was completely and utterly opposed to then!
ITTL Portal will have no say.!
ITTL Portal will have no say.!
Consider how badly the RAF chewed up the Me110s in the Battle of Britain, and you can see where he’s coming from. And the P-51 Mustang with drop tanks and a full load of internal fuel, especially the added tank behind the seat, was no match for less burdened aircraft. The trick, which Portal seems to have missed, is that you can arrange it so when your long range fighter actually meets the enemies short range fighters, the long range fighter has drained the awkward internal tanks, ditches the drop tanks, and can now meet the enemy on equal terms.
if Mustang pilots could do it, so could Spitfire pilots. As far as I am concerned Portals opposition was formed by nothing more than his own ego and Trenchardian viewpoint that fighters were a waste of time, only bombers mattered. Yes I do not like the man and along with Lord Chernwell and Bomber Harris I think they completely screwed the RAF in WW2. If more resources had been given to fighter bombers, Mosquitoes bombers and to air transport (two British Airborne Divisions in a single lift) in IMVHO the allies could have been knocking on the door of Berlin by April 1940.
The Vickers Valetta is probably possible in April 1940.
(Sell it to the Air Ministry as a dedicated trainer for the Wellington, and express astonishment that there is somehow room for an Infantry Platoon in the back?)
I was thinking more along the lines of the Vickers Viking using the Wellington's wings, and engines first (as OTL) then possibly jumping to a Varsity clone using Warwick wings etc. Whether that is possible without ASB I am still working on. I am still trying to research annual/monthly aircraft production figures for each aircraft type in the uk in WW2
quick question - i was reading the below and its something that i have raised a couple of times - i.e. the best way to do tip and run on airfields - i'd suggested the SBC but with 20lb Frag bombs what other than numbers would be the benefits of using 2" or 3" mortar bombs over a larger fragmentation bomb ?
secondly the butterfly bomb was more of a pain to clear as became a 'land mine' the mortar bombs wouldnt have the same 'delayed action' ongoing effect
the later US 20lb 'parafrag' would be better that the early war free fall GB 20lb but........
On a more immediate issue Sir Hugh had been pushing for an means of attacking and disrupting the Luftwaffe bombing force at it’s bases on the continent. To do this effectively would take a combination of a suitable aircraft, ordinance and tactical use. As to aircraft , The Havock , was a good candidate with it’s speed and bomb load. Getting permission for the new 25cm AI equipped versions to attack German bombers around their own bases was another matter entirely. As part of this ‘defence by offence’ Sir Hugh Dowding had charged the various AM and RAF departments with designing and commissioning a British area denial bomblet similar in functionality to the German Butterfly bomb. However the first practical design actually came from an armaments officer, who whilst in France in May had improvised an area weapon by using a stock of abandoned 3” mortar shells in a modified 250lb capacity Light bomb carrier , unfortunately this officer had subsequently been captured and the pilot who had flown the aircraft had no details of how it was done or how the mortar shells were fused. However he had reported that the container had worked and scattered the mortar bombs all over the target area. Using this Pilots report as a starting point officers in Number Two Group had independently developed their own extemporised anti invasion scatter bomb system using the SBC (Small Bomb Carrier) and 25 ld practice bombs. Now the same team on hearing of the requirement for an area denial bomb were proposing a similar weapon using either the 2” mortar shell weighing just over two pounds or the three inch mortar shell that weighed ten pounds. The bombs would be fitted with new tails and fuses designed for that purpose. How quickly these could be developed and produce was an important question and once a workable design had been completed Sir Hugh intended to push for a high priority for this new weapon. On discussing the current Luftwaffe night raids Sir Hugh had baldly stated that killing sitting birds was easier than shooting birds on the wing. So he was proposing to go after the Luftwaffe bomber bases in France, Belgium and Holland. His intention was that each and every bomber base should be located and identified. Helpfully the lack of radio discipline in the Luftwaffe bomber units made this fairly simple. The RDF system gave warning of when bombers were assembling and tracked them till they returned to their bases. As they returned RAF intruder bombers would follow them and then bomb the bases as the returning bombers were landing. By this means Sir Hugh intended to not only disrupt the Luftwaffe operations but also destroy not only bombers but ground crews as well.
In discussions with Portal as AOC Bomber Command it was agreed that several of the Blenheim IV squadrons from No 2 Group would be reassigned to form the bases of an intruder force to attack German air bases. Whilst the fields in occupied Holland and Denmark were easily accessible from their current stations some squadrons would be relocated to airfields in southern England to facilitate attacks oh Luftwaffe bases in Belgium and France.
secondly the butterfly bomb was more of a pain to clear as became a 'land mine' the mortar bombs wouldnt have the same 'delayed action' ongoing effect
the later US 20lb 'parafrag' would be better that the early war free fall GB 20lb but........
On a more immediate issue Sir Hugh had been pushing for an means of attacking and disrupting the Luftwaffe bombing force at it’s bases on the continent. To do this effectively would take a combination of a suitable aircraft, ordinance and tactical use. As to aircraft , The Havock , was a good candidate with it’s speed and bomb load. Getting permission for the new 25cm AI equipped versions to attack German bombers around their own bases was another matter entirely. As part of this ‘defence by offence’ Sir Hugh Dowding had charged the various AM and RAF departments with designing and commissioning a British area denial bomblet similar in functionality to the German Butterfly bomb. However the first practical design actually came from an armaments officer, who whilst in France in May had improvised an area weapon by using a stock of abandoned 3” mortar shells in a modified 250lb capacity Light bomb carrier , unfortunately this officer had subsequently been captured and the pilot who had flown the aircraft had no details of how it was done or how the mortar shells were fused. However he had reported that the container had worked and scattered the mortar bombs all over the target area. Using this Pilots report as a starting point officers in Number Two Group had independently developed their own extemporised anti invasion scatter bomb system using the SBC (Small Bomb Carrier) and 25 ld practice bombs. Now the same team on hearing of the requirement for an area denial bomb were proposing a similar weapon using either the 2” mortar shell weighing just over two pounds or the three inch mortar shell that weighed ten pounds. The bombs would be fitted with new tails and fuses designed for that purpose. How quickly these could be developed and produce was an important question and once a workable design had been completed Sir Hugh intended to push for a high priority for this new weapon. On discussing the current Luftwaffe night raids Sir Hugh had baldly stated that killing sitting birds was easier than shooting birds on the wing. So he was proposing to go after the Luftwaffe bomber bases in France, Belgium and Holland. His intention was that each and every bomber base should be located and identified. Helpfully the lack of radio discipline in the Luftwaffe bomber units made this fairly simple. The RDF system gave warning of when bombers were assembling and tracked them till they returned to their bases. As they returned RAF intruder bombers would follow them and then bomb the bases as the returning bombers were landing. By this means Sir Hugh intended to not only disrupt the Luftwaffe operations but also destroy not only bombers but ground crews as well.
In discussions with Portal as AOC Bomber Command it was agreed that several of the Blenheim IV squadrons from No 2 Group would be reassigned to form the bases of an intruder force to attack German air bases. Whilst the fields in occupied Holland and Denmark were easily accessible from their current stations some squadrons would be relocated to airfields in southern England to facilitate attacks oh Luftwaffe bases in Belgium and France.
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