A smaller bombload is the price of being designed several years earlier than the British heavy bombers and carrying a much heavier defensive armament and with similar range to boot
AHC: Peerless Air Ministry
- Thread starter perfectgeneral
- Start date
Yes, I am aware that max load altered with range but what I am trying to find out is max single bomb size and weight, so it seems that RAF bombers could and should carry a larger single bomb. I was thinking about a 6000lb "Slim Boy" version of Barnes Wallace's Tall Boy bomb.
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The thing that enabled the Lancaster to carry big bombs was a requirement to drop torpedoes buried in the original Manchester specification. This meant it had to have a long unobstructed bomb bay. Most other planes were built around 500lb/1000lb bombs so tended to have bracing etc stopping larger ordnance. This is one reason the Halifax for instance was phased out , no ability to carry Cookies.
IIRC in 1941 OTL BW actually proposed a 2-ton "earthquake" bomb to fit into the Wellington bomber that he had previously designed.
(in Brickhill's book I think)
I wonder if that could have fit into the bulged bombay of a MkIV Mossie
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The B 17 bomb bay. Even a slimmed down earthquake bomb would have to carried entirely externally. With the range penalty imposed by the weight of the bomb and the additional parasitic drag the actual range of a B 17 carrying such a bomb would be terrible. They might be able to bomb Rotterdam but I doubt they'd get much further.
OMG! I have just seen that this TL has again been nominated for a TD. Thanks to all who read and enjoy my much over rated efforts. I will try and get another post up in the next couple of dats RL permitting.
That long belly girder and the middle framework bulkhead look a bit structural, and the B-24 wasn’t as overbuilt as older designs. Cutting those out might result in the nose and tail drooping a bit unless reinforcement can be substituted in elsewhere.
I enjoyed that one, although it was never continued. Wasn't there also a wee charge of plagiarism?
I ask that you consider the Farqar-Hill in 6.5mm Arisaka using detachable fixed 30 round staggered column box magazines with the lip on the mag not the gun. As an airfield defence weapon for the Air Force Regiment.
OCD just flipped out over the illustration of a staggered mag on wiki.
Just goes to show, they aren't that simple.
OCD just flipped out over the illustration of a staggered mag on wiki.
Just goes to show, they aren't that simple.
As of September 1940 in the PM the RAF Regiment does not yet exist but what happened to the British Expeditionary Air Force in France was a hard lesson and there will be changes and Butterflies.
Well there are the Assyrian Levies and Armoured Car companies in Iraq.
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It was already issued for use to the Royal Flying Corps so it just needs re-issuing! Pre-approved. Described as "a little bit heavier" than the 9-9.5lb Lee-Enfield, so maybe 10-11lbs. A Bren is twice that.
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10.40 And They Still Keep Coming
10. 40. And they still keep coming.
September 23rd.
Day, Fighter sweeps towards London.
Night. London and Merseyside.
Weather. Fine (1)
Unlike yesterday the action commenced quite early with RDF stations reporting considerable activity around Calais by nine thirty. This proved to be a mass of some two hundred aircraft that divided into six formations of varying sizes mainly comprising Me109’s head across channel towards land fall at dover. To counter this Eleven Group scrambled no less than twenty Squadrons of fighters. Ten Squadrons successfully intercepted and engaged the enemy aircraft, resulting in dogfights painting the sky with streaks of white vapour and occasionaly black ones.
Later in the day a further incursion ha Eleven group headquarters a Uxbridge scrambling twelve squadrons working as four wings to intercept the Messerchmitts that crossed the coat at Dover, South Foreland and Hythe in five distinct waves. Within forty five minutes the last of these intruders were heading back to France but the formations had proved elusive and difficult to engage despite the best efforts of the GCI/PPI stations to vector the fighters onto them. With the enemy aircraft being of similar performance capabilities as the defending fighters unless the defending controllers are able to place their fighters above and ahead of the enemy formations the resulting stern chase will almost inevitably fruitless.
Today the daylight battle proved expensive for Fighter Command, as eleven fighters were shot down with two pilots killed and no les than six of the surviving pilots wounded. However the Germans lost eighteen aircraft over the southern counties and the channel that day and all but two of the pilots being killed or captured.
Whilst fierce encounters took place in the sky another fierce engagement was being fought in No 10 Downing Street as the Cabinet demanded reprisals against Berlin in the form of area bombing of the entire city using. As the representative of the RAF in the Cabinet Sir Phillip had to state that this was completely contrary to the advice and policy of the Air Staff. Who recommended concentrating of hitting specific high value targets. To illustrate the reason for this advice Sir Phillip used the example of the effect on London of the four bombs that struck Fulham Power station as against the several hundred bombs that had been scattered through the rest of the borough and the surrounding area.
After further discussion with the Air Staff a compromise was reached in that Berlin would be now included in the target selection but only targets of value in the city would be attacked. This decision taken at Cabinet level resulted in a force consisting one hundred Hampden, Whitleys, and Wellingtons head for Berlin on the evening of the 23rd September.
That night the Luftwaffe sent two hundred and sixty one bombers that once again set large areas of the city ablaze.
(1) Daily summary quoted verbatim from the The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood and Derek Dempster
September 24th
Day, Tilbury and Southampton raided.
Night, London and Merseyside attacked.
Weather, Early-morning fog in northern France. Channel cloudy, haze in the Straits and Thames Estuary. (1)
With the equinoctial gales that had been lashing the channel for the last few days dying down and promising calmer conditions once more the British High Command were again bracing themselves for the invasion that was still expected to fall on British shores. The dawn reconnaissance flights found the channel clear of invasions fleets and any offensive German moves. In the sky above the channel it was a different story as by eight thirty in the morning the British RDF stations were recording large formations of German aircraft massing over Calais. This mass composed principally of twin engine bombers split into five formations and headed across the channel flying at altitudes between ten thousand and twenty five thousand feet the German aircraft headed for London spread over a front of ten miles. However the bombers were met by squadron and wing strength formations of Spitfires, Defiants and Hurricanes from Eleven Group and all the enemy bomber turned back before reaching London. By midday a further formation of two hundred German aircraft formed up behind Cape Gris Nez, again they split into five into five formations before heading north for the English coast. Fighter Command sent eighteen squadrons up to oppose them. Discretion being the better part of valour upon spotting the climbing fighters the German Bomber jettisoned their bomb loads and turned back for France. As a result only two of Eleven Groups squadrons actually manged to engage on this occasion and then only inconclusively.
Quite early in the afternoon a gaggle of around a score of bomb laden Me 109’s crossed the Channel at very low level, flew into Southampton water via Spithead and the eastern Solent. Such a route opened up a large number of potential high value targets that needed to be defended, these included the RN dockyard Portsmouth, Gosport, Cowes with it’s shipyards and aircraft factory, the Naval air stations at Lee on Solent and Calshot, Oil refineries at Fawley and Hamble the Follond factory also at Hamble, Southamton and it’s docks, The Cunliffe Owen and Supermarine factories at Eastleigh airport and the Railway works that formed the airfield’s northern boundary. With such an array of potential targets and with them straddling the junction of Ten and eleven Groups there were problems with intercepting the attack. The actual target turned out to be the Supermarine works at Woolston on the river Itchen. This very factory was very distinctive and easy to identify and even as intercepting fighters dived to attack them the Me109’s dropped their bombs. Dispersed and headed for safety as fast as possible. Of all the bombs dropped not a single one actually struck the Supermarine Factory complex. Unfortunately one bomb landed squarely on a nearby municipal shelter destroying it completely, resulting nearly one hundred casualties (2)
This attack brought an end to the daylight activity but from sunset till five thirty in the morning there were continuous attacks spread throughout the United Kingdom, At one stage every active GCI/PPI station was handling at least one night fighter. Here was a real test for the system and the combined plot log at Bentley Priory bore stark witness to the enormity and complexity of the task in trying to curtail the night bomber attacks.
Sir Philip was shocked and saddened to hear of the large loss of life that occurred in Woolston but gave silent thanks that the valuable Supermarine facility had been spared this time. However he was, as he always had been, convinced that the Luftwaffe would continue to attack the Supermarine factory until they managed to destroy it. It was this belief that had led Sir Phillip to insist that Sir Archibald Sinclair as Minister for Aircraft Production arrange earlier in the summer For Super Marine and Vickers to disperse Spitfire production all over Southampton and the surrounding area. This was not as disruptive as some had feared, for as it was all Spitfires had to be transferred to Eastleigh airport for final assembly and test flying. At Eastleigh there was the large Cunliffe Owen aircraft factory where a lot of Spitfire components and subassemblies were being manufactured, all these pieced had up until the decision to disperse production from the Supermarine factory been transported to the production line and then back to the final assembly shed back at Eastleigh. Now every dispersed facility delivered strait to Eastleigh where both the final assembly shop and Cunliffe Owen assembled the complete aircraft. All that was done at Supermarine Wolston now was administration, type development and production design, mock up and prototype construction, plus construction of special aircraft like PRU Spitfires. With this near miss Sir Phillip was certain that the Luftwaffe would try again and so wrote a memo to the MAP requesting that they immediately check that Supermarine had completed dispersal of all design storage and other non replaceable items.
(1) Daily summary quoted verbatim from the The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood and Derek Dempster
(2) This is as OTL,
September 23rd.
Day, Fighter sweeps towards London.
Night. London and Merseyside.
Weather. Fine (1)
Unlike yesterday the action commenced quite early with RDF stations reporting considerable activity around Calais by nine thirty. This proved to be a mass of some two hundred aircraft that divided into six formations of varying sizes mainly comprising Me109’s head across channel towards land fall at dover. To counter this Eleven Group scrambled no less than twenty Squadrons of fighters. Ten Squadrons successfully intercepted and engaged the enemy aircraft, resulting in dogfights painting the sky with streaks of white vapour and occasionaly black ones.
Later in the day a further incursion ha Eleven group headquarters a Uxbridge scrambling twelve squadrons working as four wings to intercept the Messerchmitts that crossed the coat at Dover, South Foreland and Hythe in five distinct waves. Within forty five minutes the last of these intruders were heading back to France but the formations had proved elusive and difficult to engage despite the best efforts of the GCI/PPI stations to vector the fighters onto them. With the enemy aircraft being of similar performance capabilities as the defending fighters unless the defending controllers are able to place their fighters above and ahead of the enemy formations the resulting stern chase will almost inevitably fruitless.
Today the daylight battle proved expensive for Fighter Command, as eleven fighters were shot down with two pilots killed and no les than six of the surviving pilots wounded. However the Germans lost eighteen aircraft over the southern counties and the channel that day and all but two of the pilots being killed or captured.
Whilst fierce encounters took place in the sky another fierce engagement was being fought in No 10 Downing Street as the Cabinet demanded reprisals against Berlin in the form of area bombing of the entire city using. As the representative of the RAF in the Cabinet Sir Phillip had to state that this was completely contrary to the advice and policy of the Air Staff. Who recommended concentrating of hitting specific high value targets. To illustrate the reason for this advice Sir Phillip used the example of the effect on London of the four bombs that struck Fulham Power station as against the several hundred bombs that had been scattered through the rest of the borough and the surrounding area.
After further discussion with the Air Staff a compromise was reached in that Berlin would be now included in the target selection but only targets of value in the city would be attacked. This decision taken at Cabinet level resulted in a force consisting one hundred Hampden, Whitleys, and Wellingtons head for Berlin on the evening of the 23rd September.
That night the Luftwaffe sent two hundred and sixty one bombers that once again set large areas of the city ablaze.
(1) Daily summary quoted verbatim from the The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood and Derek Dempster
September 24th
Day, Tilbury and Southampton raided.
Night, London and Merseyside attacked.
Weather, Early-morning fog in northern France. Channel cloudy, haze in the Straits and Thames Estuary. (1)
With the equinoctial gales that had been lashing the channel for the last few days dying down and promising calmer conditions once more the British High Command were again bracing themselves for the invasion that was still expected to fall on British shores. The dawn reconnaissance flights found the channel clear of invasions fleets and any offensive German moves. In the sky above the channel it was a different story as by eight thirty in the morning the British RDF stations were recording large formations of German aircraft massing over Calais. This mass composed principally of twin engine bombers split into five formations and headed across the channel flying at altitudes between ten thousand and twenty five thousand feet the German aircraft headed for London spread over a front of ten miles. However the bombers were met by squadron and wing strength formations of Spitfires, Defiants and Hurricanes from Eleven Group and all the enemy bomber turned back before reaching London. By midday a further formation of two hundred German aircraft formed up behind Cape Gris Nez, again they split into five into five formations before heading north for the English coast. Fighter Command sent eighteen squadrons up to oppose them. Discretion being the better part of valour upon spotting the climbing fighters the German Bomber jettisoned their bomb loads and turned back for France. As a result only two of Eleven Groups squadrons actually manged to engage on this occasion and then only inconclusively.
Quite early in the afternoon a gaggle of around a score of bomb laden Me 109’s crossed the Channel at very low level, flew into Southampton water via Spithead and the eastern Solent. Such a route opened up a large number of potential high value targets that needed to be defended, these included the RN dockyard Portsmouth, Gosport, Cowes with it’s shipyards and aircraft factory, the Naval air stations at Lee on Solent and Calshot, Oil refineries at Fawley and Hamble the Follond factory also at Hamble, Southamton and it’s docks, The Cunliffe Owen and Supermarine factories at Eastleigh airport and the Railway works that formed the airfield’s northern boundary. With such an array of potential targets and with them straddling the junction of Ten and eleven Groups there were problems with intercepting the attack. The actual target turned out to be the Supermarine works at Woolston on the river Itchen. This very factory was very distinctive and easy to identify and even as intercepting fighters dived to attack them the Me109’s dropped their bombs. Dispersed and headed for safety as fast as possible. Of all the bombs dropped not a single one actually struck the Supermarine Factory complex. Unfortunately one bomb landed squarely on a nearby municipal shelter destroying it completely, resulting nearly one hundred casualties (2)
This attack brought an end to the daylight activity but from sunset till five thirty in the morning there were continuous attacks spread throughout the United Kingdom, At one stage every active GCI/PPI station was handling at least one night fighter. Here was a real test for the system and the combined plot log at Bentley Priory bore stark witness to the enormity and complexity of the task in trying to curtail the night bomber attacks.
Sir Philip was shocked and saddened to hear of the large loss of life that occurred in Woolston but gave silent thanks that the valuable Supermarine facility had been spared this time. However he was, as he always had been, convinced that the Luftwaffe would continue to attack the Supermarine factory until they managed to destroy it. It was this belief that had led Sir Phillip to insist that Sir Archibald Sinclair as Minister for Aircraft Production arrange earlier in the summer For Super Marine and Vickers to disperse Spitfire production all over Southampton and the surrounding area. This was not as disruptive as some had feared, for as it was all Spitfires had to be transferred to Eastleigh airport for final assembly and test flying. At Eastleigh there was the large Cunliffe Owen aircraft factory where a lot of Spitfire components and subassemblies were being manufactured, all these pieced had up until the decision to disperse production from the Supermarine factory been transported to the production line and then back to the final assembly shed back at Eastleigh. Now every dispersed facility delivered strait to Eastleigh where both the final assembly shop and Cunliffe Owen assembled the complete aircraft. All that was done at Supermarine Wolston now was administration, type development and production design, mock up and prototype construction, plus construction of special aircraft like PRU Spitfires. With this near miss Sir Phillip was certain that the Luftwaffe would try again and so wrote a memo to the MAP requesting that they immediately check that Supermarine had completed dispersal of all design storage and other non replaceable items.
(1) Daily summary quoted verbatim from the The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood and Derek Dempster
(2) This is as OTL,
I hope not ... another heavy bomber design is a terrible waste
better to accelerate the Supermarine Type 322 carrier torpedo bomber design ...
prototypes were ordered at the same time as the Fairy Barracuda with the same specified roles and same bomb/torp load.
The 322 was much faster especially at cruise, longer-ranged, had better deck character, was easier to store and better defensively armed
iOTL It was delayed because of Spit production.
So move the design to another builder to complete - say Westland who already knew STOL techniques
Cancel both the Albacore and the 'Cuda and have Fairey build Swordfish II/IVs ' by the bucket load until the 322 is ready
BTW as a bonus the 322 is a half brother to the Mossie, being designed in wood to minimise strategic materials.
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Another interesting chapter! A few typos I spotted quoted above.
Sorry guys the latest updates for windows 10 has caused mayhem with a my lap top. So editing has been very hit and miss.
So the prototypes and their drawings are to be moved? Terrific. Not that the type 314 etc. are all that.