AHC: Peerless Air Ministry

[PMN1]

Even if it is explained that the alternative is that the yard doesn’t get work and goes bankrupt?

Probably not a bad idea if a few adjoining yards were bought up by a consortium then merged into one with all the latest gadgets.

The Battle of the Atlantic would be a very different thing if a large and increasing proportion of the merchant navy were large 15-20knot ships.

I believe most of the ships lost were in the slow convoys, these being ships capable of doing less then 8 knots. So
I would hate to think what their speed of advance was.

The British Shipbuilding Problem

The British problem with building more merchant ships in FFO lies with shipyard management (which was poor), shipyard labour relations (which were very poor) and under-investment in the yards since the start of the 'great freight rates slump' in 1921. In 1939, the British shipbuilding industry was still building the same 'standard tramp' (a riveted 10 knot 6000-9000GRT coal fired triple expansion or steam turbine vessel) as it had been building in 1895. These ships were very cheap to build and operate, but British industry had not progressed as much since 1918 as its international competitors. While some British companies were indeed building modern motorships (with their crewing advantage over steamers), most were not. This all presents a serious problem. The answer is obvious, reactivation of some of the 60-odd derelict yards on the Clyde, with its excellent infrastructure network. However, this is impossible on a yard basis as they are all obsolete, small and owned separately. There would be a great duplication involved, and Clyde labour and management practises were obsolete at best.

The only viable solution is immediately obvious. The British government has to purchase a suitable number of old, closed yard sites, clear them, and build a new yard as a Government-Industry Dockyard.

This yard will have to break with Clyde (and British) management and labour practises. This was actually a national aim of the Government, but no way could be found to do this in OTL despite strenuous efforts. Purchasing old derelict yards, clearing and amalgamating their land, and creating a new government-funded (but privately run and not RN) yard allows the Admiralty to control the process at Leathers and Beaverbrooks suggestion, and also allows them to import US construction, labour and management practises into a mass production yard.

This means that the yard need not be unionised, or, if it is, that the fallback is one yard shipbuilding union and not a free-for-all of 40-50 separate 'craft' unions with the resulting disastrous demarcation disputes. Quite justifiably, Beaverbrook and Leathers would be able to point to the 'linear modular production line' nature of the yard complex and its sole use of welding and diesel engines, and say that the old union model simply does not fit. As part of the deal in building the yard would be to build worker facilities (canteens, toilets/dressing rooms/shower facilities, most work under shelter etc) equivalent to those in US yards, traditional union goals would be pre-met as part of the business model.

Funding. Funding this yard is simple. The money allotted by Treasury in late 1940 for the purchase of 100 elderly US freighters will be used.

Engines. With turbine blade cutting capability stretched to breaking point and triple expansion engines unable to provide the speeds needed, there is no choice but to obtain the necessary speed from making all new merchant ships motorships. Therefore, the yard has to have a large medium speed diesel plant attached to it to build these diesels. Once standard diesel is required, with single or twin installation. The standard diesel will be a version of the Burmeister & Wain 6-Cyl. 662-140 series slow-speed, 6-cylinder diesel engine. A naturally aspirated engine will deliver about 5300bhp. The turbocharged variant will produce 6000 BHP at 135 RPM. Engines will be built and fitted on-site by an existing diesel-building firm in new facilities.

Description. It will take nearly 3 years from the decision to create the yard until the first of the most complex ships is launched. The situation is easier for the monitors, as some of the existing slip foundations can be used to start building these ships while the rest of the yard is being completed. Meanwhile, standard small monitor hulls can be produced by small mercantile yards lacking other orders.

The yard will be unusual in that it will be a linear yard with sideways launching for all ships. The old yards were 1880s slipway yards, with the yard a series of sheds around one to four slips perpendicular to the river. The railway net feeding the yards was parallel to the river, about 400 yards inland. Therefore there is no choice but to place the new yard on the old sites between the river and the railway corridor. The basic yard module is a materials yard, and a large construction hall fed by internal module construction points. Ships will be assembled inside the halls on a mobile bed, then rolled out to a side-slip, warped on to the slip, and launched.

Standard ships will be launched completed, making the largest mass to be moved the net tonnage, no more than 6,500 tons.

There will be one Cargo Liner hall (2 ships simultaneous side-by-side assembly), two Tramp halls and one tanker hall.

Construction Methods. All vessels will be all-welded. All vessels will be assembled from prefabricated modules.

Production cannot be too big simply due to demand on British steel.

AN early estimate of full monthly production:

1.5 x 13,000 cargo liner
0.75 x 15,000 GRT tanker
2.5 x 10,000 GRT tramp

56,000 GRT a month at full production. The limiting factor here is engines. Even with a chunk of the 'large order for US machine tools' that Churchill gave away to the USSR in OTL, this is still 7 x 3,000 HP diesels a month for the engine-works to build. That's a lot. I do not think the issue of hulls is much of an issue. Hulls are easy, cheap and simply to build. SO I think there WILL be additional hulls produced for Naval use, but the engines will have to come from elsewhere.



APOD

It looks like the RN will start to get its own mass production CVE (12,000t 22 kt turbine cargo liner hull and 20,000 ton 18 kt tanker hull conversion) from late 1942.

The big yard on the Clyde will start producing from the Phase 1 ship halls (module assembly on a covered 800' slips) in mid-42. The Phase 2 halls (side-launched from covered halls, 2 side-slips off a single covered layout and module area) in early 43 and from the multiple side-launch halls in early-mid 43.


But this is derailing the topic so this actual APOD story line is here from the start

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/francefightson/british-shipbuilding-changes-in-ffo-t1111.html

and here

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/fra...struction-responses-jan-2011-update-t848.html

Apologies for the formatting...it didn't like the transfer from Yuku to Tapatalk.

 

[Driftless]

The British Shipbuilding Problem

(snip)

Rootstock for it's own timeline....

 

[perfectgeneral]

But this is derailing the topic

Can you apply any parallels between aircraft production and shipbuilding to set some of this as advice from the AM for Beaverbrook?

 

[marathag]

Even if it is explained that the alternative is that the yard doesn’t get work and goes bankrupt?

That line of thought didn't work on the British Auto Unions after the War

Personally, at the time I don't thing opening an Open Shop would have been possible

 

[Shanghai61]

Minor nitpick: it's Sir Edgar Ludlow-Hewitt, not Sir Edger.

 

[StevoJH]

That line of thought didn't work on the British Auto Unions after the War

Personally, at the time I don't thing opening an Open Shop would have been possible

So it would require changes of laws? Or stricter enforcement of them?

 

[sonofpegasus]

Spelling fixed, my apologies to Sir Edgar!.

 

[merlin]

One important thing about the Folland was that it was virtually a service aircraft. The wings were manually folded and all the FAA equipment was either built in or ballasted and that included the four cannon armament.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this new engine in the 1,000 hp range, that being the case IMHO I think 4 x 20mm canon is being a bit optimistic! In reply to the original specification for a canon fighter armed with 4 x 20mm canons, the Boulton-Paul aircraft were to have 1,500 hp Hercules, and 1,750 hp Vulture engines. Granted the Hurricane was later so equipped but by then the Merlin had grown in power.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Quite correct, The first FN1 in service will only have two cannons. All that and more will start to come out in the up coming installments. I still struggling with a plausible time line. Oh! and resisting the temptation to kill off the Prof!
For help with this time line can anybody give me an indication of how big a delay to the first flight of the Avro Manchester the problems with the RR Vulture caused. Like wise the Taurus with respect of both the Albacore and the Beufort.

 

[merlin]

According to Bruce Robertson author of Beaufort Special, "... while the Battle of Britain was at its height, it was decided that Beauforts in service would be flown into Filton for the Taurus engines to be modified. by the end of
August 1940 254 Beauforts had been delivered of which 134 were in maintenance units awaiting engines or engine modifications..... The Taurus engine in its Mk III form had been the standard for the Beaufort, but the Mk II was found to be more satisfactory and was fitted where possible."
With the Gloster twin F.9/37 according to Wm Green - "Owing to some teething problems with the Taurus TE/1 engines, the later Taurus IIIs were installed, but the new motors were de-rated to 900 hp as compared with the 1,050 hp offered by the Taurus TE/1" Timescale only given as between delivery date of July '39 and resumed trials in the spring of 1940.
The Beaufort went on to have the more powerful XII & XVI engines.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Part 5.01 The Butterflies Gather.

At the start of 1938 Sir Phillip and the Airstaff once again reviewed all the specifications and development work carried out in the previous year. To see how that related to the OR’s and Specifications in the pipe line and those protypes already being constructed. Just looking at the sheer number of specifications issued in the years since 1934 showed an incredible number and variety of designs and projects, the majority of which fell by the wayside. On the other hand the increasing urgency of enlarging the air force was also reflected in the increasing number of production specifications issued.

1934 27 specifications issued, 17 for new types 20 for production.

1935 41 specifications issued, 34 for new types 7 for production.

1936 47 specifications issued, 19 for new types 28 for production.

1937 42 specifications issued, 24 for new types 31 for production.

These figures made Sir Phillip enquire whether the RAF and hence the AM was tending towards quantity rather than quality. How many of those designs proposed were very close to ones built to a different OR. The Number of new types entering service in 1937 and those being trialled at Martlesham Heath certainly made impressive reading but were they the right aircraft.

The returns for aircraft being test flown for trials and evaluation as set out in the official reports from Martlesham were impressive in their sheer number if nothing else.

Aircraft arriving at Martlesham for Protype and Production trials in 1937.



Blackburn Skua first flight 9th of February 1937 Blackburn Rock order April 1937

The Hawker Henley first Flew on the 10th of March, 1937.

Miles Magister First flight 20th of March 1937

Miles Kestrel first flight May 1937

Gloster F4/34 first flight early May 1937 at Martlesham for trials by mid July. Second prototype flight delayed waiting for flight worthy Bristol Taurus angine.

De Haviland Moth Minor, first flight 22nd of June1937.

De Haviland Don first flight June 1937 (250 ordered of the drawing board Order suspended August 1937)

Airspeed Oxford first flight 19th of June 1937 entered service November 1937.

De Haviland Albatross first flight in August 1937.

Bolton and Paul Defiant first flight 11th of August 1937

Vicker Venon type 279 first flight 17th of June 1936 no orders protype retained by AM for trials at Martlesham heath.

Follond NF1 first flight 15th November Flown to Martlesham December 1st.

Sunderland first flight 14 of October 1937

Bristol 148 first flight 15of October 1937, K6551 Mercury engine, later swapped for an Alvis Pelides engine. K6553 Taurus engine first flight schedule for May 1938 due to Taurus engine delays

Handley Page H.P.52 Hampden 9th of November 1937 Martlesham for trials

First Production standard Wellington flight 23 of December 1937 (Vickers type 271 Wellington first flight 15th June 1936)


As for aircraft entering service in 1937 the list was an impressive, eight different types. Of these Sir Phillip had been informed, two were at best obsolescent and three were training aircraft. So that left three of what could be called front line aircraft types entering service .

Hadley page Harrow enters service 13th of January 1937

Gloster Gladiator deliveries commence 16th of February 1937

Bristol Blenheim deliveries commenced on 10 March 1937

Fairy Battle entry into service June 1937

Miles Magister in service October 1937

Airspeed Oxford in service November 1937

Miles Kestrel Deliveries commence November 1937 in limited numbers only.

Hawker Hurricane Deliveries commence December1937



Could the RAF do better by reducing the variety of types of aircraft and concentrating on the best. The debate grew quite heated and it was quite surprising when Sir Cyril Newall closed the debate by stating that however carefully Sir Wilfred Freeman and his department worked to produce the best new designs they could no one could really determine their worth till they had been used in earnest. Though Sir Cyrill did not say that he advocated Great Britain getting involved in the Spanish Civil War he did comment that the RAF was only learning second hand lessons whilst both the Germans and the Italians were gaining first hand experience. Which would inform their future designs and tactics.

In January the order was confirmed for 200 Hawker Henleys built at the Hucclecote factory of Gloster aircraft. These aircraft were to be built to a revised specification as ground attack bombers and to have the same outer wing as a standard Hurricane but initially only two machine guns in each wing. Trials were on going to finalise the bomb load but this would include the capacity for a 500lb bomb on the centreline and fittings for a single bomb up to 250lb under each wing. This would necessitate some redesign of the bomb bay and wing which was being undertaken jointly by the design teams at both Kingston and Hucclecote.

January 1938 and 111 Squadron becomes the first Fighter Command Squadron to convert to the Hurricane. This was much eased by having a training flight of the new Miles Kestrels with instructors attached for conversion training. All the pilots commented on the huge difference between flying their open cockpit fixed undercarriage biplane Gauntlets and the sleek Kestrels. The pilot's smiles after their first solo flights in the Hurricane had to be seen to be believed. The radical intervention by Sir Phillip to halt the Gladiator production after the first batch of aircraft and not place any further orders meant that the first Gladiator was delivered on the 16th of February 1937 and the last by the end of 1937 and totalled 252 aircraft. This enabled the Hucclecote factory to move onto constructing Hurricanes and later mix these with Henleys until the Hawker expansion factory at Langley entered serial production. The first Hucclecote built Hurricanes were expected by Easter 1938 and the Henley shortly thereafter. Under Pressure from Sir Phillip, Hawker Aircraft upon the departure of Follond as head designer at Gloster Aircraft had slowly started to integrate the capacity of the two design teams, This process was rather marred by Hawkers insistence on still keeping two separate design offices, One at Kingston and the other at Hucclecote. Howether whilst one office would be the lead design office on a project, work could be assigned to designers at either one. The design team at Glosters was currently concentrating on getting their new designs and prototypes airborne at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Some Bloke]

Every timelines better with Gloster Gallants/Goshawks

 

[merlin]

Blackburn Skua first flight 9th of February 1937 Blackburn Rock order April 1937

Nitpick - should be Blackburn Roc - named after seabirds - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roc_(mythology) - will they be converted back into (additional) Skuas?

The Henley OTL was designed with a deep fuselage to accommodate 2 x 250lb bombs, with a need to meet the spec. for an overload of 2 x 250 lb bombs under the wings, whereas the competing Fairey design carried the bomb load externally.

Incidentally with the spec's - is there any way of putting an date of issue to them?

 

[sonofpegasus]

ITTL the Cancelled Rocs were never built at Bolton Paul as schedule commencing in early 1938 OTL. ITTL the freed up capacity for 136 air frames will be used for Deviants. OTL the Defiant was delayed by about 1 year by the building of the Roc. Though I have yet to find defined confirmation of the length of the delay. The Henley also had a prone bomb aiming position which from the drawings I have seen limited the depth of the bomb bay. take out the requirement for level bombing and hey presto you get room for a 500lb bomb in the bay, at least you do ITTL.

 

[yulzari]

Just a thought but a Henley with a 500lb fuselage bay and 250lb bombs under each wing is asking a very early Merlin to lift an overweight Hurricane with 600lb of extra crew member (Fulmar figure) and 1,000lb bombs. And we were wondering if an early Hurricane could carry 2x500lb bombs or just 2x250lb bombs. Surely all it has going for it is a bit more wing area?

 

[pjmidd]

Just a thought but a Henley with a 500lb fuselage bay and 250lb bombs under each wing is asking a very early Merlin to lift an overweight Hurricane with 600lb of extra crew member (Fulmar figure) and 1,000lb bombs. And we were wondering if an early Hurricane could carry 2x500lb bombs or just 2x250lb bombs. Surely all it has going for it is a bit more wing area?

The Battle with the same engine and 3 crew members was rated at 4x250lb so whilst speed would be impacted, assuming a big enough wing, it is possible.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Yes that is why they are doing trials. The Battle has a wing area of 422 square feet and a fully loaded weight of 10,792, where as historically as a target tug the Henely was 342 square feet wing area and a fully loaded weight of 8,840 pound. Therefore there is likely to be a trade off between fuel and bomb load on the Henely at least.

 

[perfectgeneral]

The design team at Glosters was currently concentrating on getting their new designs and prototypes airborne at the earliest opportunity.

F.9/37 Reaper twin engine cannon fighter?

 

[sonofpegasus]

Part 5.02 The Butterflies get stronger.

In the same month a very perturbed Sir David Randall Pye, who had recently taken over as Chief Scientific officer at the AM, requested an immediate meeting with Sir Phillip to discuss urgent matters pertaining to ongoing Research and Development.

The gist of the matter seemed to be interference in the research and development work by the British Security Services. Sir David illustrated two particularly frustrating cases. Firstly, there was the RDF 1.5 and RDF 2 projects at Bawdsey Manor. Apparently from late 1936 all of ‘Taffy’ Bowen’s teams work had been reliant upon a single receiver chassis originally built by EMI as part of their Television research and acquired by ‘Taffy’ Bowen by means unknown. Since then all efforts to get further chassis from EMI had been thwarted.

Apparently the Secruruty Services were concerned that the American engineers working in their laboratories might steal the RDF designs, despite EMI’s assertations that no foreign national would have access to work done for the AM. There was a similar situation at Metrepolita-Vickers but that appeared to have been resolved so why not at EMI? Sir David stated that the Security Services seemed more concerned by the possibility of our erstwhile allies gaining information than a belligerent nation bombing the British people to pieces. Sir David bemoaned the delays that this was causing as currently the one receiver unit had to be moved from aircraft to aircraft as required and never mind the consequences if it was damaged or even destroyed.

Sir David also commented that Bawdsey Manor were able to get supplies of American made Westinghouse ‘Acorn’ and ‘Doorknob’ valves so why the problem with EMI? The Other security problem was with Power Jets, where the application of the official secrets act was hampering the attainment of outside investment. Unless a way was found to enable adequate explanation to potential investors of the application and business potential of the jet engine then the Treasury would have to step in to provide the shortfall in funding or development would be invariable slowed.

Sir Phillip undertook to raise the problem with both the Prime Minister and the relevant Security Chiefs strait away but he did ask whether discreet enquiries had been made with the BBC at television studio Alexandra Palace as to which British companies were developing television receivers, to see if they had or could built a suitable receiver chassis.

Sir Phillip raised the issue at his next meeting with the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister enquires had had an a immediate effect when some very shady looking gentlemen arrived unannounced at Bawdsey Manner and delivered half a dozen new EMI receiver chassis to Sir David Pye. His enquires via the BBC had some success when it was suggested that Sir Phillip should contact B J Edwards of the Pye Radio Company. By one of those sometime serendipitous coincidences on the very same day ‘Taffy’ Bowan had received a note from his old Cambridge professor, Edward Appleton, that he should visit the same company who were based in Cambridge. Upon arranging a visit ‘Taffy” discovered that the Pye company had literally dozens of 45/Mc/s TRF receiver chassis and were setting up a production line for their proposed television set. In one fell swoop the delays in series testing of 1.5m RDF 1.5 and of the air interception radar RDF 2 had been overcome.

Sir David in discussion with ‘Taffy’ Bowan came to the conclusion that they should be in a position to carry out test interceptions with RDF 1.5 by May with RDF2 tests being possible by mid summer. One possibility ‘Taffy’ Bowan wanted to investigate was whether there was an advantage in fitting a night fighter with a combination of RDF1.5 and 2. Early Trials had shown that RDF 1.5 could locate an aircraft at ten miles or more if the illuminating ground radar was suitably located but homing in for the final attack was problematical. He surmised that the stronger signal at close range from RDF2 might give better definition and permit guidance to within cannon range or about 1000ft.

Squadron Leader Hart and his research team ( known at Bawdsey Manor as the ‘Operational research’ team because they worked on how the RDF was employed rather than its hardware) at Bawdsey Manor had sent his report regarding the table top and paper trial exercise carried out to use the RDF 1.5 and the RDF 2 systems to achieve nigh time interceptions. The conclusions were that providing there was sufficient inland coverage on the 1’5m wave length by enough stations an Aircraft fitted with RDF 1.5 could fly a standing patrol and be vectored into the path of approaching hostile aircraft by the CH system now being built. If RDF2 was solely being used then controllers using the 1.5m wavelength RDF system were required to control and vector each fighter towards the hostile intruder aircraft. The report also noted that the requirements for the 1.5m RDF 1.5 units were very similar to those set out for the RDF sets required to fill ‘the low level gap’ in the CH system as well as the proposed Coastal Defence(CD) RDF system. It was suggested that a coordinated development should be under taken to avoid duplication of work and waste of resources.

This helped to confirm in Sir Phillips mind that there needed to be a major overhaul of the control of RDF research and development. Currently it was simply run as just another program under the control of Sir Wilfred Freeman as AMR&D and as of this juncture the stewardship of Watson Watt. Sir Phillips propose to set up a new Directorate to be known as the Directorate of Communications Development at the Air Ministry. The new directorate would take responsibility for all RDF research, Design and construction of the RDF apparatus, design and construction of all RDF sites and communications systems. This administration function was currently being done directly from Bawdsey Manor and was interfering with the research and development work. Sir Phillip sought to being it into the AM where there was more existing infrastructure for administration.

Of course the Treasury object at the cost, even complaining that the only viable candidate to lead this new directorate would have to be promoted above other more senior to him and given a higher salary. With the backing of the Minister for Coordination of defence the objections of the treasury were overruled. In early 1938 Watson Watt handed over the daily control of Bawdsey to his assistant Rowe and departed for Whitehall. One of the objections to the promotion of Watson Watt to Director was his apparent management deficiencies and his lack of seniority in the civil service, the intervention of Sir Maurice Hankey as Cabinet and IDC sectary was used to over rule such impediments. At Sir Inskip’s suggestion, welcomed by Sir Phillip and Particularly Sir Arthur Dowding, who had been battling the insularity and prejudice of his own service to instigate a collaborative effort, the RN and WD were instructed to send suitable senior representatives to work at the new directorate on the coordination of the combined efforts of development require with RDF research. The Army had had a research section working at Bawdsey Manor since the middle of 1937 but the Admiralty Signal School at Portsmouth had resolutely ploughed their own furrow. That was to end immediately and all RDF and associated development was to shared openly by all three services or Sir Inskip would want to know why and heads would roll.

 

[perfectgeneral]

I am totally bowled over by your research on radar. I'm a big fan of Pye Ltd and could see them doing well from a more distributed programme under the coordination of a central directorate. The GPO have some useful engineers that might solve some housing, control and display issues moving from prototype to operational units.