Rather the Skua came out too early. First class when it came out. Coming in to service two years later it might have been a Merlin engined dive bomber.
AHC: Peerless Air Ministry
- Thread starter perfectgeneral
- Start date
It would then potentially have been cancelled due to Munich and FoF/BoB.......or just delayed until 43?
The Skua was built to a fundamentally flawed specification - trying to be a dive-bomber/fighter in 1938 pretty much guaranteed that it would end up under-armed and under-performing, as it did. Even putting a Merlin in it wouldn't have got the performance up to where it could face the Bf109. They'd have been better off dropping the "fighter" requirement and building a dedicated dive-bomber.
Any chance the PAM can spare someone to slap the FAA into giving up their obsession with compromised multi-role designs?
The Firebrand and Firecrest were poor aircraft even if they hadn't been obsoleted by the jets. "Winkle" Brown damned them for poor maneuverability and lousy pilot visibility, especially when deck-landing.
Oh and while the B-20 was an interesting design, it's worth noting that the only one ever built crashed (aileron flutter) and killed its crew.
Loving the TL, by the way!
Any chance the PAM can spare someone to slap the FAA into giving up their obsession with compromised multi-role designs?
The Firebrand and Firecrest were poor aircraft even if they hadn't been obsoleted by the jets. "Winkle" Brown damned them for poor maneuverability and lousy pilot visibility, especially when deck-landing.
Oh and while the B-20 was an interesting design, it's worth noting that the only one ever built crashed (aileron flutter) and killed its crew.
Loving the TL, by the way!
OTL the loss of the B-20 was unfortunate, In the PAM two prototypes are built of all designs. Also ITTL Arthur Dowding at the Admiralty is sailing a very different course but that is for another time line (which has been done so well by others, see TWHW by Astrodragon for example) but I doubt I will take that particular mantle up.
Is it fundamentally flawed to try and dual use aircraft or just that the first line fighter got cancelled?
Having the Skua being able to operate as a second line fighter would work against most none fighters? Should they not just have fitted a larger engine say 1000-1200hp and it would have been a good two seat anti shadower fighter or DB for the early/mid war as long as it stays mostly out of land (109) range?
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I too miss them and then that delays others as I'm late updating the threadmarks.
Nothing needs a Hurricane's wings. It had the wings of a slow bomber. Although the Henley did use the same wing as an add-on to it's own wing root. I can't imagine how chunky that was!
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By all accounts the Henley was no slouch being around fifty Mph faster than the Skua, It also would have carried up to eight 303mg's in the wings. A further point is that the Henley had a longer range and endurance than the Skua. Much has been written on various forums regarding the missed opportunity that was the Henley as a two seat Fighter bomber. In many ways it has been expostulated that the Henley would have been a faster better fleet fighter than the Fulmar.
I think with all that lift it could have been a decent torpedo bomber. Now there's a rarity.
The Skua was not designed to be a fighter. It was designed to be a dive bomber. However, as the plan was not for the carrier to be within fighter range of land based fighters the threat was from shadowers and long range bombers. Against these the duration of the Skua meant that it could act against them and was thus given 4x '303" to both defend itself in the strike role and counter the long range threat. It was never expected to defend the Fleet close in and that was the task of the Fleet Fighter (in this period the Nimrod had given way to the interim Gladiator prior to the Fulmar arriving which itself was a role substitute for Their Lordship's preference for a single seater for the Fleet Fighter task).
In actual fact there was a Merlin engined Skua replacement coming into service at this time. The Fulmar which was able to fill the Skua role much better. However the lack of a viable Fleet Fighter prior to the carrier Martlet and Sea Hurricane pushed the Fulmar into the fighter role even though the fall of France meant that the carriers would have to go within the range of land based fighters and medium range fast bombers.
My point is merely to avoid the Skua being thought of as a fighter v fighter aeroplane which it was not and was not intended to be.
On the Henley as a fighter. It is an oversized under powered Sea Hurricane. As a strike aeroplane it is a Fulmar equivalent and if the Admiralty could have got a Sea Henley the same factory could have given them Sea Hurricanes just as easily and the Fulmar's given the strike role.
To release the Fulmar for that role within the thread a POD would need to have been a viable single seat Fleet Fighter in service already. Perhaps a Sea Venom which would have had enough time to be made as a Mercury/Perseus engined MkII and enter production and in service across the fleet?
In actual fact there was a Merlin engined Skua replacement coming into service at this time. The Fulmar which was able to fill the Skua role much better. However the lack of a viable Fleet Fighter prior to the carrier Martlet and Sea Hurricane pushed the Fulmar into the fighter role even though the fall of France meant that the carriers would have to go within the range of land based fighters and medium range fast bombers.
My point is merely to avoid the Skua being thought of as a fighter v fighter aeroplane which it was not and was not intended to be.
On the Henley as a fighter. It is an oversized under powered Sea Hurricane. As a strike aeroplane it is a Fulmar equivalent and if the Admiralty could have got a Sea Henley the same factory could have given them Sea Hurricanes just as easily and the Fulmar's given the strike role.
To release the Fulmar for that role within the thread a POD would need to have been a viable single seat Fleet Fighter in service already. Perhaps a Sea Venom which would have had enough time to be made as a Mercury/Perseus engined MkII and enter production and in service across the fleet?
It's fundamentally flawed strategy to cancel the first-line fighter and try to make do with armed bombers/recon planes.
I can see the argument that if the only fighter mission is breaking up unescorted bomber strikes and chasing off shadowers you don't need a "real" fighter. But unless you're planning to have your fleet carriers hunt U-boats in mid-Atlantic (bad idea) what can your carriers usefully do while staying out of hostile fighter range? The Japanese have real fighters on their carriers and the Germans and Italians will stay under cover of land-based air. Skuas/Fulmars/Henleys can't cover the fleet against a fighter-escorted strike, can't escort a strike that is going to meet fighter opposition, and if there's no opposition you don't need even second-line fighters.
50mph faster than a Skua is 275mph - which is still slow for 1940. By 1944, you can build a first-line fighter that can carry a useful bombload as well, but with late-30s engines it just doesn't work.
Agreed but that's the AM/Cabinets fault and once the european situation deteriorates they have to sacrifice something....
Germans cant stay under cover and threaten GBs oceanic trade so I dont think its that bad an idea, GZ isnt going to be ready for years so any break outs of S&G or B&T etc will be outside 109 range.
Skua is 38 in service so its going with Sea Gladiator at 253 mph as the top line fighter..... the change in a few short years is huge.
In 1937/38 its not that huge,
Hōshō (1921)
Akagi (1925)
Kaga (1928)
Ryūjō (1931)
Sōryū (1935)
Hiryū (1937)
Zuihō class. Zuihō (1940) Shōhō (1941)
Note the huge build up and pre Munich/FoF/BoB the RN could think they are getting 6 new I class to match....
IJN aircraft in 38 service,
A5M 270 mph
D1A 192 mph
B4Y 173 mph
The issue IMO isnt Skua its the lack of Sea Hurricane in 39 and then a replacement in late 41 early 42.......and this is due to european war.
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Hypothetical government ruling sometime in the early 1930's.
Any future fighter must be capable of being operated from the RN's aircraft carriers.
Don't even really need that just a more cooperative AM, even without fixing the shadow factories or moving merlin's from Battles/Defiant to useful aircraft you could easily have made 100 Sea Hurricanes ready by the end of 40 at that point a lot of this goes away?
marathag
Banned
TBD never got a service update. It could have used some, like self sealing tanks, armor, and a more powerful motor to haul it all. A TBD-1 with all that would have been very useful, had it a decent torpedo.
The 200 Henley Target Tugs could easily have been built as Sea Hurricanes instead.
Quite so but what do you use for high speed target towing so necessary for AA training etc?
Driftless
Donor
Didn't the drag from the target really overwork the engines of the tugs? Could some of the early model Blenheims (or similar twin engine plane)be tasked for the job?