SMEP, according to some sources their were four Hundred Luftwaffe bases within range of the UK in 1940. So it is not just France. There are Luftwaffe bombers attacking the UK from Bases in Norway, Denmark, Germany, Holland, Belgium and France. Deciding which ones are worthwhile targets would be problematical.
 
One thing that always puzzled me is why didn't bomber command go after the Luftwaffe's bases in France (save obviously not being able to hit them and perhaps concerns over French casualties because of this).

They did

From Tami Davis Biddle’s ‘Rhetoric and Reality in Air Warfare: The Evolution of British and American Ideas About Strategic Bombing, 1914 – 1945

Page 187

‘in return for 1,097 sorties against airfields (and the loss if sixty-one aircraft), Bomber Command destroyed five German aircraft on the ground and damaged twelve. Damage to airfields was hard to assess, but, as the official historian of the Battle of Britain explained dryly, it “seems to have caused the enemy no serious embarrassment”.



From Stephen Bungay’s ‘The Most Dangerous Enemy, A History of the Battle of Britain’.

‘Bomber Command’s efforts against the invasion forces peaked during September, when some 60% of its strength was directed against the Channel ports. For several nights the whole of the available force attacked the barges. Between the end of July and the beginning October, 36% of Bomber Command’s sorties were made against invasion shipping and destroyed about 13% of the assembling craft. A further 17% were against airfields and 14% against the German aircraft industry.’

He goes on to say that because of the numbers involved, it would have been very difficult to achieve anything against the airfields.
 
9.6 1940 July 19th and 20th
9.6

July nineteenth.

Day, Dover Raided, Defiant Squadron in major engagement.

Night, some activity between the Isle of Wight and Plymouth as well as between the Thames Estuary and Harwich.

Weather, Showery with bright intervals in most cases. Channel Winds light-fair (2)

Already Sir Hugh Dowding was needing to move Squadrons around to either rest them or bring more Squadrons into threatened sectors. So on July twelve 152 Squadron had transferred with their Spitfires from Acklington in Thirteen Group down to Middle Wallop in Ten Group. On the fourteenth of July 54 Squadron had been withdrawn from Hornchurch in Eleven Group and swapped with 141 Squadron in their Defiants from Turnhouse in Thirteen Group. 247 Squadron finaly finished their conversion on Reapers and as their was no Reaper OTU they were sent to Filton in Ten Group where 263 Squadron who were also flying Reapers could pass on their experience. 247 squadron had been the last squadron flying Gloster Gladiator due to their short field capability, As this had become less important as the new larger paved airfields were completed, they had been slated to convert to Reapers. However production of the two seat Night Fighter version had been given priority so conversion had been slow as the Squadron awaited their new aircraft. In anticipation of and to expedite the transition Training Command had in early May assigned to 247 Squadron, two Miles Masters for duel control training on a retractable under carriage monoplane, along with a couple of Kestrels for single seat monoplane practice and lastly a brace of Oxford’s for twin engine conversion flights for the pilots . These measures insured that as the Reapers arrived at last the pilots were as prepared as possible for the new type. This forethought by Training Command was indicative of the change throughout the training establishment where now the application of focussed training was becoming paramount. Despite Training Commands best efforts losses to training accidents was still a major drain on RAF strength.

Today 141 squadron learnt the realities of air fighting in 11 group. Having been scrambled from Hawkinge to a patrol line some miles South of Folkstone at 5000ft. As they passed Dover they were pounced on by about twenty Me 109’s which dived unseen out of the sun, of the eight Defiants one was shot down in the initial pass and two others damaged. In the ensuing dog fight the fire power of the four cannons in each of the Defiants began to take a toll of any Me 109 that offered a clear shot but out numbered from the start by more than two to one the arrival of No111 squadron brought welcome relief to the beleaguered Defiants. Soon after the Hurricanes intervened the Me 109s broke of and ran for the French coast. Later the Germans would claim twelve Defiants shot down. In fact the loss of two with no less than four of the remaining six suffering some degree of damage it was a harsh introduction. This was sweetened slightly by the fact that the squadron was credited with four kills, a probable and two more damaged. 111 squadron claimed one additional Me 109. That evening the Co of 141 Squadron flew over to 111 Squadrons Mess at Croyden and on behalf of his Squadron covered the Treble one pilots bar bill for the night as a thank you.

The next major assault did not appear on the RDF screens until four pm when a large formation was detected over Calais. In response 11 Group scrambled three Squadrons Nos 64,32 and 74, flying a mixed force of Spitfires and Hurricanes from three different stations. In a series of un co-ordinated attacks, most of which had to be broken off as the escorting fighters intervened, no confirmed kills were scored by either force. Considering no less that thirty six fighters were sent to intercept a ‘No score draw’ was not a desirable result as far as Sir Kieth Park was concerned. The fact that no significant bomb damage was done to any worthwhile target was at least some consolation. Elsewhere the Luftwaffe lost two additional aircraft a He 111 bomber and Do17 reconnaissance aircraft that did not flee early enough.

This was the most intense day of activity so far for Fighter Command with a total of 701 sorties being flown.

Later that night Hitler stood in the Reichstag and delivered a speech which was seen by him as a ‘last appeal to reason’ aimed at the British Government and the people of the United Kingdom.


July twentieth,

Day, Convoys and shipping at Dover attacked. Portland and Weymouth attacked.

Night, Widespread minelaying from the needles, Isle of Wight to Lands End; Bristol Channel and eastern coastal waters.

Weather, Occasional thunderstorms, straits of Dover cloudy clearing to bright intervals.

‘Hell Fire corner’ as the area around Dover was now called would live up to it’s nickname again on this day. Sporadic clashes through the day gained momentum in the late afternoon when a convoy passing Dover under the protection of a flight of Hurricanes from 32 squadron on standing patrol attacked a gaggle of Stukas escorted by a scwharm of Me109’s. The Me 109’s managed to interpose themselves between the attacking Hurricanes and the Stukas in the resulting melee 32 Squadron suffered the loss of two Hurricane shot down and two damaged, one pilot being badly injured but the Luftwaffe losses were greater, being Three Me109’s and two Ju 87 Stukas. This was followed by and even larger encounter between a mixed bag of around forty Hurricanes and Spitfire tangle with forty eight Me 109’s, for such a large engagement there were very few casualties on either side with the RAF losing a single Spitfire and the Luftwaffe another three Me 109’s.

Total losses for the RAF were three aircraft destroyed and half a dozen damaged, the Luftwaffe lost six Me 109’s, Two Ju87 Stukas, one Ju 88, a Do 17 and finally off Northern Ireland a four engine Fw 200 was also shot down.



(2) Dailey summary adapted from the The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood and Derek Dempster
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Defiants are clearly more bomber destroying interceptors than dogfighting fighter interceptors. They should always be mixed with a few lighter aircraft. Any chance of a better wing for the Hurricane?

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threa...rricane-up-to-spitfire-109-performance.38177/

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/hawker-hurricane-thin-wing.323436/

https://forum.keypublishing.com/for...s-for-hawker-hurricane-with-laminar-flow-wing

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a800776.pdf
This shows maximum 17.2% thickness to chord ratio set back 42.4% of the chord. A wing root ratio of 14% and wing tip ratio of 8% would be more fighter-like.

https://forum.keypublishing.com/filedata/fetch?id=3616885&d=1272136194

As you may be able to tell from these links, laminar flow is only of limited use to the old Hurricane. The Liberator had a wing that had it's thickest point set 40% plus back from the leading edge and certainly gained range from it. The Hurricane will spend more time in air thick with dust, smoke and even insects. So things won't be so clean. Laminar flow is less likely. Surface area drag might be reduced though. A thinner wing that has less span but wider(further back) to retain some area...?

Griffon Hurricane, the Maelstrom. Now compressibility becomes an issue. So now moving the thickest point of the wing back has a use. So thinner, shorter, deeper chord and more laminar.
Aerofoil Better.jpg


Straight plan for 60% of wing, then 30% of linear taper and a rounded tip offers a fake elipse that is easier to manufacture. That 10% from tip section would sit wholly in the top half of the root section due to the wing rising to the tip. Wing span of about 36ft. That's two foot off each wing, but not much drop in wing area due to the longer chord front to back.
 
Last edited:
The Monarch is a bit of an oddball and in some ways a dead end. Despite having ITTL larger and better contoured cast air passages, as well as intermediate crankshaft bearings The engine like OTL has limited development potential. For this TTL I am proposing that during it's service live the Monarch will attain only a 25% increase in power but will prove very reliable when not over extended.
As to a better thin wing on the Tornado, ITTL it has the same wing as OTL. Just it will be in Production by the end of 1940. So work on a new version using wing profiles from NACA similar to those on the new proposed North American aviation fighter being built to British requirements will be forthcoming.

The PAM might be rolling lots of Doubles but they cannot all be double sixes!!
 
Last edited:
The Monarch is a bit of an oddball and in some ways a dead end. Despite having ITTL larger and better contoured cast air passages, as well as intermediate crankshaft bearings The engine like OTL has limited development potential. For this TTL I am proposing that during it's service live the Monarch will attain only a 25% increase in power but will prove very reliable when not over extended. PAM might be rolling lots of Doubles but they cannot all be double sixes!!
Even so an engine that gives you 2000/2200 hp in 1940 is going to be a major improvement since then the awkward Sabre isn't needed. Also is a Monarch powered Mossie viable?
 

formion

Banned
How come the Defiants weren't moved to sectors where the enemy bombers were operating without Me109 cover? Eg Scotland, Yorkshire etc ? I guess they could engage Me110 in a better footing.
 
Excellent as always, and a harsh lesson for the Defiant pilots and the Germans who will very quickly tell folks not to get in front of quad 20mm cannons. Reapers I assume are going to be pure night fighters unless desperately needed in the front lines. And the Defiant did well considering how badly they were jumped, and with several planes damaged its obviously a rather tough bird so again, more pluses in its favour. Sure its not the most manouverable fighter but 4 x 20mm cannons = ouchie.
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
How come the Defiants weren't moved to sectors where the enemy bombers were operating without Me109 cover? Eg Scotland, Yorkshire etc ? I guess they could engage Me110 in a better footing.
The same question could be asked about OTL Defiants...
 
The date and time of the engagement with 141 Squadron was as OTL, just a better result for the Defiants ITTL! Fighter Command is still near the bottom of a very steep learning Curve. Compared to the Luftwaffe, Fighter Command are still discovering what works and what kills your pilots.
Matching aircraft types to the threat environment might seem like a given to us but first you have to know the threat.
Now having examples of both a 110 and a 109 to fly against the Fighter Evaluation Flight can actually give cogent comparisons and tactical advice.
 
I see that the Channel convoys are still rolling, which while disappointing gives credibility in that the Air Ministry may be on the ball, but that doesn't mean that other parts of the government can see beyond the end of their noses.
I'm also really liking the daily update format - works best if read with a BBC news accent from the BOB film...
 
It'll be interesting as the thread develops, and Luftwaffe losses increase how their tactics change, and what changes at 'the top' are made. I remember early in the year there was a thread on what would happen if the Lw inflicted higher losses on the RAF. Here we potentially have the opposite to that.
 
9.7 the Convoy Battle Continues
9.7 the Convoy Battle continues.

July Twenty first.

Day, Raids on Convoys in channel and Dover straits.

Night, Targets chiefly at Merseyside.

Weather, fine and fair early, clouding over during the morning. Fair in the evening.(1)

Another day of inconclusive clashes. Convoy ‘Peewit’ was attacked in the Channel just after nine Am. Three Squadrons from 11 Group encountered twenty Luftwaffe aircraft over the convoy but only three German aircraft were shot down. Later a Hawker Hector biplane being used as a communications aircraft was caught by a roving Me 109 and shot down, retribution was extracted when the Me 1o9 was intercepted by a flight of Hurricanes from 328 Squadron based at Middle Wallop.

Fighter command flew a total of five hundred and seventy one sorties shooting down nine enemy aircraft for a loss of six.


July twenty second.

Day, Shipping off the South Coast attacked.

Night. Minelaying the whole length of the eastern seaboard.

Weather. Straits fair. Channel cloudy. Light westerly winds in both. Bright intervals between showers in the east. (1)

More frustration today for Fighter Command. Though a total of six hundred and eleven fighter sorties were flown due largely to the weather conditions the enemy proved particularly difficult to bring to battle today. With a few inconclusive clashes taking place the RAF lost one aircraft whilst downing two.

The night, though still short was very busy with German aircraft attempting to lay mine the whole length of the east coast convoy routes. Every available night fighter in the east of England from Berwick to those based at Biggen Hill flew sorties being tasked to every PPI radar station from Margate to The Tyne. Conditions were not good but some interceptions were made and enemy aircraft engaged and claimed. Due to the weather conditions and the fact that every interception took place some distance out over the sea only one confirmed kill was lodged (and that only after a surviving drew man from the He 111 was recovered the following day). All the other claims total four were only clamed as possible though one was upgraded to probable when a coast guard station on the Thames estuary confirmed having seen an aircraft with a burning engine not far from the location of the interception. At wick the FAA squadron No. 804 had flown their first sortie from Wick in their Folland Fulmars under the control of 14 Group.

July Twenty Third.

Day. East coast shipping raided.

Night. Mine laying from dover to he Tyne and Forth Estuary.

Weather. Slight Haze in Straits of dover. Cloudy with occasional rain in other districts. (1)

Though there were some sporadic attacks on shipping the Luftwaffe activity during the day was some what less than expected. However principally in defence of convoys Fighter Command still flew a total of four hundred and seventy sorties. These included standing patrols and defensive interceptions.

Rather than heading the requests from the AM and RAF for the suspension at least of the Channel Squadrons there was now a request for cover to be given to convoys operating in the North and St Georges Channels. This would now require fighter cover for convoys virtually the whole way around the coast of Great Britain. This would further spread sand thin the resources of Fighter Command.

Today had considering how light the fighting had been was as far as Dowding was concerned a good day for the RAF as they had downed four of the enemy without loss. Though the numbers were small the ratio of four to none was much better than the average.

July Twenty Fourth.

Day. Convoys and shipping in the Channel attacked

Night. Nil.

Weather. Channel and Straits of Dover cloudy. Coastal and hill fog in western districts spreading east. Rain in most districts. (1)

Today saw the pattern continue and in the morning before conditions deteriorated and curtailed the Luftwaffe operations a major attack was launched on shipping in the Thames Estuary and simultaneously off Dover. Just after eight Am utilising a break in the weather the Germans sent a formation of some twenty bombers with a large escort to attack a convoy in the Thames Estuary. 11 Group scrambled No 54 squadron to intercept and the controllers sent them up to 20,000 ft. Just as the formation was sight the commander of No 54 squadron was warned o a second formation to his south.

Upon sighting the second formation he reported as eighteen Dorniers escorted by a large escort of fighters. The fighters were weaving behind and above the bombers ready to pounce on any intercepting aircraft. Reporting this Deere the commander of No 54 squadron requested immediate reinforcement and informed the controller that he would take half the squadron south to attack the formation near dover and the remaining half world attack the original formation approaching the convoy in the Thames Estuary.

The 11 Group controller responded by scrambling both remaining Spitfire Squadrons from Hornchurch .No’s 65 and 74 Squadrons were tasked with reinforcing their colleagues from 54 squadron talking the formation over the Thames Estuary. To the west 64 squadron from Kenley and 610 Squadron from Biggen Hill were dispatched to join Deere and the rest of 54 Squadron over Dover. The intention was to try and trap the Luftwaffe formations between the four additional Spitfire squadrons. The Ploy was only partially successful as on the approach of the Squadrons from Kenley and Biggen Hill the German attack near Dover broke off and dived for the sanctuary of the nearby French coast. On sighting the two squadrons from Hornchurch the German formation attacking the convoy Near sheerness broke awy to the East to avoid the Spitfires now coming North from Dover. Under strict orders not to pursue enemy aircraft to out to sea only the leading flights of the reinforcing squadrons were able to engage in a fleeting pass. For the loss of a single 54 Squadron pilot both convoys had been protected and the attacks driven off. Whilst the Squadrons from Kenley and Biggen Hill were engaged to the east a single Ju 88 made a raid on the aircraft factories at Brooklands. In what could only be descried as a cheeky ploy this bomber lowered its undercarriage and joined the landing circuit with a number of RAF aircraft before suddenly breaking off and dropping a string of bombs. Despite this bold gambit little damage resulted.

Once more Fighter Command flew in excess of five hundred and fifty sorties, the bulk of them again in defence of convoys. For the loss of three aircraft and one pilot Fighter Command managed nine confirmed kills.

(1) Dailey summary quoted verbatim from the The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood and Derek Dempster
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
9.7 the Convoy Battle continues.
...

Once more Fighter Command flew in excess of five hundred and fifty sorties, the bulk of them again in defence of convoys. For the loss of three aircraft and one pilot Fighter Command managed nine confirmed kills.

(1) Daily summary quoted verbatim from the The Narrow Margin by Derek Wood and Derek Dempster

Less than 1% casualties is a strong day. Especially when the enemy is losing three times as much.
 
very true but at this stage the numbers are still very small. I suspect in OTL both air forces might have lost more aircraft through accidents on that day than in combat!
 
Top