perfectgeneral

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Monthly Donor
Airfields?
Infrastructure, runway length, locations and number all need specific planning.

  • While grass fields are pretty standard, sonofpegasus has the ministry expecting heavier aircraft
  • Dispersal can be applied to many design areas.
  • Locations should take into consideration likely enemies and their targets.
 

perfectgeneral

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The ten year rule. Is it still applicable or should we have a rolling five year mobilisation plan with ready defence?

What would that require in terms of training and manufacturing?

Do we have the right organization and staff within the AM to fight a war or compete during peaceful civilian and military air trade?
 
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Re turreted fighters, really they are an incredibly niche item, they can perform well in a few rather specific conditions but really are not worth the time, money and resources put into something that will basically only perform as intended on the Tuesday of every other month but only if the skies are clear and the sacred words have been said by all parties involved.

Putting a turret on a single engine fighter is an interesting idea, but really that's all it should remain, a thought experiment. Perhaps if the RAF was looking for something different then a larger twin engine attack aircraft could be developed and if anything that would be the one to be armed with cannons.

I must confess i'm probably wrong here but the F36/34 = Hurricane and F37/34 = Spitfire right? Perhaps instead of going for the hindsight influenced 20mm cannons, the RAF instead arms them with .50cal MGs, 2 - 3 in a wing. The UK had the capacity to make its own .50cal MGs with Vickers, so perhaps instead of going for the perfect option, go for whats available. Perhaps have a .303/.50cal mix, the initial Hurricane/Spit coming into service with 8 x .303s. But them having the mountings so that when the gun's developed and okay you replace 2 x .303's with a single .50cal and then the next ones out have quad .50's and no .303s. So by the time Mr Hitler and friends put on their romper boots, the RAF has a mix of the 303/50's and 50s only fighters in service (perhaps the initial one's with the 303's and 50's can't take quad 50's due to a different wing layout that would require too much work to fix or something).

And at the same time instead of a turreted fighter the RAF develops a destroyer of its own and F37/35 leads to the first cannon armed British fighter, but its a twin engine plane, if not the Whirlwind, something like it. Like the F.9/37 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_F.9/37 And this in turn could lead to its more multi-role Beaufighter cousin (again swapping the .303's for .50s, perhaps 2 x .50cal 2 x 20mm instead of 4 x .303 and 2 x 20mm).

This would give the RAF two decent fighters that hit harder than before as well as one heavy 'bomber destroyer'/attacker aircraft which also gives the RAF its first viable experience with 20mm cannons and this can then shape future plans.

Also would this lead to the Fairey Battle either being canned entirely or significantly altered. And if so, might this not make the RAF look at the Blenheim, and then the specs for fighters coming soon, and have them make nervous noises and look at replacing the Blenheim with something else? Or at least improving it as best they can as technically its not in service yet (and hopefully at least not having the bomb bay doors shut with a bungiee cord, relying on the weight of the bombs to push them open!).
 
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marathag

Banned
Putting a turret on a single engine fighter is an interesting idea, but really that's all it should remain, a thought experiment.

Or this?
f02a523b14a642dec471d321bcee822d.jpg

50cf202a9567d6145d55b2c8278f510e.jpg

Elevation adjustable on P-80A

More ambitious was the F-89A
19275655.jpg

scor22.gif


Elevation and rotation
 

marathag

Banned
scared-kid-holding-a-cross.jpg


What in gods green earth are those things! Why did they think that would work! O_O

What's better than oblique firing weapons like the Nazis and Japanese used?
American Can-Do spirit added in, of course

Why not be able to aim at all those Soviet Bombers from multiple approach angles? Martin and Western Electric Corporations FTW

Until they built a few, tried it out, and found what a horrible idea it was
 

marathag

Banned
The Berezin B20 was an 0.5" mg bored out to be a 20mm cannon. Could employing the Vickers v690 half inch high velocity round lead to an attempt to bore one out to 20mm too? A 24kg autocannon that fits in a wing would be great.

https://vickersmg.blog/the-guns/ammunition/12-7-x-120-sr-v-664-v-690/

Even 18mm rounds might hold a useful HE w/ tracer load. Finding hard to find data on the class D Vickers.

It seems only the Japanese were smart enough to see the obvious fix, at looking at the Brownings they bought some examples of.

Why don't we just scale it up?


And it worked. Worked really well even. Why start with a blank sheet of paper?

Japanese took the '20s 7.7mm Browning design up to 12.7mm, 20mm and even to 30mm by War's end.

Meanwhile, in the USA, nothing that simple could be done, and spent the whole war trying to debug the 'improved' version of the Hispano in 20mm and new one in .60 caliber, a bit above 15mm.
They were even having problems getting the M2 50 to fire faster in 1941, and didn't get that simple task worked out till 1944

Back to the Vickers.
Yeah you could blow the shoulder out an make it a straight wall cartridge, similar to some of these

20mm1.jpg


But straight wall cartridges and full auto can have problems, so you might want to stay in that 18mm range

Before WWII, Vickers was trying to sell the RN on this, 16.8mm x 149SR, that was .661" but they went with 20mm Oerlikon
V661.jpg
That's the Vickers .50, then the .661" and bottom the 20mm the RN went with
 
Growing Caterpillars
Part 2 Growing Caterpillars.

May, June and July had seen the reorganisation of the RAF to form Training Command, Bomber Command, Fighter Command and Maritime Command. Sir Phillip had had a fight with the entrenched RAF hierarchy on the formation of the last Command originally designated as Coastal Command. With the help of the First Sea lord and the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence the Commands name had been altered to reflect the fact it’s task involved patrolling as far off shore as aircraft had the range to do so in support of both Naval and trading operations. This Change would help Sir Phillip to pursue his intention of providing coastal command with long range land based aircraft (LRLB). Explaining to the Treasury that LRLB aircraft would be cheaper than the big flying boats did a lot to persuaded them not to quibble to much over the issuing of suitable specifications.


Having set Alvis on the road to being a second radial engine manufacturer Sir Phillip sought advice as to which company should be contracted as the second liquid cooled inline engine maker. Though Napier seemed to be the logical company there were concerns over the adoption of the unconventional sleeve valve system for the new Sabre engine. So as a back up Sir Philip cast around for another engine design. De Haviland had their inverted V12 and thought an X 24 version of this air cooled engine would be possible and give about 1100 hp on 87octain petrol but they were fully committed to producing Gypsey engines for their Tiger Moth Trainer aircraft. Though historically Richard Fairey had completely alienated the AM regarding his engine building enterprises, Sir Phillip decided that AM would give technical assistance to Fairey’s to develop their proposed H24 engine to a production standard. Discussions were also going on to see if a manufacturer would take on a licence for the Hispano-Suiza Y12 engine but were proving problematical. This search for alternative engines was given further impetus when the Hurricane prototype had to have three RR. Merlin engine changes in two weeks with internal coolant losses and cracked cylinder heads being the primary problem. Both Vickers and Armstrong-Siddley were approached to see if they would take on the Y-12. Meanwhile Earnest Hives and his team at RR were desperately working to solve the Merlin’s problems with all other engine projects slowed down.

Meanwhile in July with the official announcement that the FAA was to be fully returned to the Admiralty control in 18 months but with the Admiralty taking responsibility for aircraft specification and production Via the AM immediately. To this end the newly promoted Vice Admiral Artur Dowding was appointed as Admiral Henderson’s assistant with responsibility for aircraft specifications procurement via the AM. Some noted his appointment and said it was only due to his brother being head of Fighter Command. Though Sir Arthur’s appointment was logical, as he had previous experience of working with the AM and had been captain of an aircraft carrier but the fact that Sir Hugh had been the Air Council member for research and development that did much to sway the first Sea Lord. So Sir Phillip now had a brace of Dowdings to deal with but hoped he never had to fire both barrels.

Observers both inside and outside the RAF/AM had been surprised at the cordial relationship between Sir Hugh and Sir Phillip as the former was known to hold strong opinions and to be forthright in their expression. It was speculated that Henry Tizzard had a lot to do with helping to keep the peace.

By Mid 1936 Sir Phillip had got the measure of the uncertainties and sacred cows of the higher echelons of both the RAF and the Air Ministry and nowhere is that better illustrated than the debate (some would say argument) over the F.37/35 four cannon fighter specification responses. There were proposals received from the following companies;- Westland, P9 twin engines (RR Perigrine) and variations with a single Hercules or Twin Turbojets. Bristol Types 153 and 153A, the 153 being a single engine (Bristol Hercules) and the 153A being a twin engine design (Twin Aquilas). Bolton and Paul F37/35 Single radial engine design. Fairey design project. Hawker F37/35 proposed development of the Hurricane. Supermarine Type 312 Spitfire development. With such a wide ranging set of proposals there was always going to be a need to whittle down the number and make a choice as all of these could not be built. The biggest debate was regarding whether or not a single engine aircraft would sacrifice too much performance due to the weight of the four cannons. With the problems of the Merlin clouding the waters somewhat There was also heated contention to not proceed with either the Hawker or Supermarine proposals due to the fear that work on the F37/35 projects would delay the production design and building of the Hurricane and Spitfire. Two things convinced Sir Phillip that both the Hurricane and Spitfire F37/35 projects should proceed and these were that despite the current difficulties with the Merlin the history showed that engine HP always grew as the engine matured towards its design limits and the second factor was that the AM had issued Specification F9/35 for a single engine turret fighter and the estimates were that the four cannon would weigh no more than the combined weight of the four gun turret and gunner, further the drag penalty on the cannon armed fighter would be less as well. To Hedge his bets Sir Phillip also issued a contract to Westland for their twin engine P9 design with the rider that they liaise with Power Jets so that the P9 could be fitted with twin turbo jets with as little redesign as necessary. The whole issue of the F37/35 specification caused Sir Phillip to query the validity of the OR which had resulted in the drawing up of the F9/35 specification. This led Sir Phillip to enquire of Sir Hugh Dowding as the new Head of Fighter Command if there was any way that the veracity of the turreted fighter concept could be tested. Sir Hugh considered that it would be difficult until both the new high speed single engine fighters were in service and the prototype turret fighters were available for comparative tests against the latest monoplane bombers. This gave Sir Phillip further pause for thought and he issued a confidential memo to both Hawkers and Bolton Paul suggesting that their F9/35 designs should if possible be able to take four wing mounted cannon in place of the turret ( For the Hawker F9/35 design that would simply mean fitting the Hurricane F37/35 wings and fairing over the turret location whilst ensuring the COG remained with acceptable limits. For Bolton and Paul design it would require a reworking of the wings internal structure to accommodate the guns and reposition the fuel tanks).

With the proposed expansion of the RAF and the rapid technical developments Sir Phillip was apricating more and more the work of his informal advisory committee and that of the official CSSAD committee, though he was very sceptical of the work being done by the Re-Orintation of Air Defence sub-Committee of the Imperial Defence Committee. He was also convinced that all Command within the RAF would benefit from their own Scientific Advisory Committees and so commenced canvassing scientists and technological experts to sit on these bodies.

The rest of the year was spent consolidating progress and coming to grips with the requirements of the new command structure. This included a review of the training aircraft and the new Bombers both an order and the responses to the latest set of specification issued.

This threw up an interesting conundrum the AM were about to pace an order for the DH Don L2387 to specification T.6/36 when a memo from Training Command noted that whilst not conforming exactly to the requirements of T.6/36 the Miles Kestrel trainer design that had been submitted was a far closer performance match to the new generation of fighters than the proposed Don and therefore would be a much better advanced trainer for fighter pilots. It was pointed out that the ‘Don’ was nearly as large and no faster than the new Blenheim bomber which had first flown that summer. There was also the advantage that Kestrel was from an as yet un committed aircraft supplier and was made from wood with an obsolescent engine. Sir Phillip therefore requested that Miles complete and submit the prototype for comparative trials as soon as possible, this being done as a PV. Project with the prototype costs being recovered only on the placement of an order.

Early 1937 would see final submissions of designs for both heavy bombers to specification B.12/36 and medium bombers to specification P13/36 and Sir Phillip foresaw that there would be a lot of contention over the allocation of prototypes and production for two aircraft he personally saw as being the future of RAF offensive bomber capacity.
 
Also one possible suggestion for Sir Phillip, invetigate the COW Gun - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COW_37_mm_gun - The weapon might find use on any planned attack/heavy fighter aircraft or light bombers in a potential ground attack role. We are aware that the Americans are investigating the use of such a weapon in their own aircraft and as an anti-bomber weapon it could be utterly devastating. Its deployment on patrol craft like the Blackburn Perth has proven the weapons reliability and usefulness as it can engage both air and sea targets.

And a great update :D But might it be possible to give links or names etc of the aircraft designs, its a bit of a bugger to find them with just the numbers.
 
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I am using the Specification and design numbers until such time as a name is assigned, hence referring to the Hurricane, spitfire and Blenheim by Name at this time and what later became the Sterling and the Manchester by their respective specification numbers. I am useless at doing links but will try and learn!
 

Ramontxo

Donor
What about fitting the westland twin with Merlíns. If specified at the start the COG problems would have been adresed. And as the second inline develop the RR Griffon ASAP
 
I am still none the wiser??? LOL

What are Weaboos and Wehraboos?

Fanboys basically :) To quote the dictionary

Weeaboo is a mostly derogatory slang term for a Western person who is obsessed with Japanese culture, especially anime, often regarding it as superior to all other cultures. (Hence memes about Katana's folded 10000 times cutting inferior western steel etc.) basically its a pisstake.

Whereas fffectively, a Wehraboo is any obsessive Wehrmacht fanboy/fangirl who doesn't like historical facts getting in the way of his militaristic fantasies. The cliché of German Techwank can be a common fetish for many Wehraboos. And German techwank's happen here a LOT, and seem to be greeted at times with the eyerolls usually reserved for threats that start with "Operation Sealion...." Theer's also the associated risk of stepping into 'Clean Wehrmacht' territory but that don't happen here because any form of applogism like that would rightfully be trampled on and beaten up by braying, snarling mods.

So a Teaaboo I would guess is the same, we're here happily wanking the British military, but hopefully within reason and constraint. Although I think you'll be hard pressed to find any really serious Empire defenders beyond "Well..of the Empires of the time it was perhaps one of the less shit in regards to how it treated everyone else." Because if anyone goes "White man's burden!" then the Mods will very rightfully kick them in the teeth.
 
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Given that the plans are to use radar and fighters to intercept the bombers, the logical assumption is that the enemy will have similar defences.
Now while the bomber fetishists in the AM may have received a setback, its unlikely they will have slipped quietly into the night - more likely that they are trying to give a better chance of their own bombers getting through.
Now bigger bombers with turrets is one way (that they will see) of managing this, but a second string would be to escort the bombers. So it would seem a good bet that a twin-engine escort fighter could do that role (as well as be the cannon-armed fighter). Something like the Gloster Reaper - if the Taurus still has its OTL issues, there is no huge reason why it couldn't have twin merlins.
It would actually fill a number of roles (not all appreciated yet) - has the looking at the RAF's assumptions also looked at the need for a fast, long range reconnaissance aircraft?

Also, how much input is the Admiralty getting to Maritime Command? There were some serious OTL issues, which could have been sorted quite easily, which the AM ignored.

On engines, if a radial in the 1000-1200hp range is needed, why not licence a US design? Say from P&W (who already have a factory in Canada). At least as a stop-gap while a British equivalent is developed.
 
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