If I do a rewrite I will massage the figures. At the moment I am trying to sort out the changes to the OOB of both Bomber and Fighter Command as of 01 09 1939.
 
Less stable.

As the solid fuel burns, motor section gets lighter.
For stability, you want the Center of Gravity ahead of the aerodynamic Center of pressure, and the center of thrust passing thru the center of Gravity
Just goes to show, you can't believe everything you read. Thx for clearing it up.:cool:

Tho saying, "Nah, they're too cheap" would work, too.;)
Re the exports so far I have only included new Gladiators that were exported. These include the 30 exRAF Gladiator Mk II aircraft sent to Finland December 1939 to January 1940, which if all other things being equal will be Gloster-built Hurricane Mk I aircraft. IOTL the British Government also sent 12 Hawker built Hurricanes to Finland.
Can I suggest the number of a/c exported might be higher? That is, with more Hurricanes & Spitfires built, more Gladiators & Furys & such are replaced sooner, & so are surplus to requirements, & so available for export (even if brand-new types aren't, & some of those might be sold, too).

May I also suggest some might end up as far away as China?
 
Last edited:
my first thought was to send surplus gladiators to the Dominions and places like Singapore.
Canada & Oz need Hurri & Spit, & I can't see them accepting Gladiators. (I could be wrong.) I see Gladiators in Singapore as not much more than Zero bait.:eek: What about Rhodesia or South Africa, where the expected opposition is nil (or nearly)?

Zero bait is also why I suggest China: less concern for Chinese pilots than for whites (even Colonials ;) ). Unless the Finns or Greeks want them (which they well might)?
 
6.12 More Fledglings Start To Fly
6.12 more fledglings start to fly.

By the beginning of August Sir Phillip and particularly Sir Archibald Sinclair in his role as Minister for Aircraft Construction or MAP for short, were starting to see real progress. Using parts kits from Southampton Castle Bromwich had now assembled a squadrons worth of Spitfire Mk Is. More importantly outside the assembly shed the rest of the work force under Vickers Management had got to grips with building the thousands of components required for the aircraft and as of the first of September the first cannon armed Spitfire Mk Ib would roll out onto the adjacent airfield hopefully to be joined by many more in rapid successions. Castle Bromwich spitfires armed with two Hispano 20mm cannons would be known as the MkII to differentiate them from the Woolston built MkIb with the same armament.

Simultaneously Hawker at Langely were starting to produce the Hurricane Mk Ic also with twin 20 mm cannons. Glosters at Hucclecote would also transit to the Hurricane Mk Ic for their block 2G contract by the end of the month. Once Hucclecote was achieving the predicted three aircraft a day then Hawker at Kingston/Brooklands would also transit to the cannon armed version. All of these aircraft would be fitted with the VHF TR 1133 radio sets (comprising the R1137 and T1136 with IFR transponder) all VHF fitted cannon armed Hurricane would go to squadrons in 12 Group at first and then 11 Group. Their existing Hurricanes with the older HF TDR9 Radios (R1120 and T1119 units) would be transferred to squadron either in or forming for 10 and 13 Groups. Even with the two new RR factories coming online Earnest Hines at RR new that would not be sufficient once combat started and he and Fords Management were completing plans for Ford to build and run a massive new shadow plant at Trafford Park in Manchester to build RR engines.

With VHF radios and IFF sets flowing out of the factories the control of the fighters by the sector stations was improving. Coastal Command had by now three squadrons of Flamingos No’s 220, 224 and 233. 220 was flying from RAF Leuchars, Due to recurring problems with the ASV sets in their aircraft, ‘Taffy’ Bowen travelled to Leuchars with some of his team to investigate. Whilst there Squadron Leader Lugg suggested that a modified IFF set in the control tower would work as a homing beacon that could be used by ASV equipped aircraft to find the airfield. After a very short development period a modified IFF set was produce that enabled an aircraft to get a range and bearing on the beacon from up to 60 miles.

Samples of ‘mother’ as the Beacon was known was soon being installed at all Coastal Command stations. The naval/FAA Development team at Bawdsey Manor were keenly aware of how important ‘mother’ could be to the Navy. Fitted to Aircraft carriers it enabled any ASV equipped aircraft to locate it. Because the beacon was coded the aircraft could also identify the ship. The implication of this was that by fitting all RN ships with the ‘mother’ an ASV equipped aircraft could identify any of the RN brood irrespective of visibility, day or night.

Just before the August exercises ‘Taffy’ Bowen had a request from R.V. Jones for a flight in the Trials Flamingo at Martlesham. Being scientifically curious as to what R.V. Jones was up to ‘taffy’ duly arranged the flight. R.V. Jones duly turned up on the appointed day with several boxed electronics gadgets and Francis Chichester in tow. much became clear as soon a one of the boxes was opened to reveal an American Hallicrafters S27 ultra high frequency communications receiver which required AC current and there in lay a story.

When the first Pye built chassis were acquired in 1938 it became obvious to 'Taffy' Bowen that the current power supply on RAF aircraft, being a single dynamo would not be sufficient for RDF equipped aircraft. After hearing that a government committee had been sitting for two years to specify a new power source and had achieved nothing other than disagreement 'Taffy' Bowen decided that he had to take action himself. To cut a long story short “Taffy’ Bowen contacted Mr Fletcher the Managing director of Metropolitan-Vickers at Sheffield and arranged an appointment. On the day ‘Taffy’ Bowen’ was flown up to Sheffield in one of the Martlesham Heath Fairey Battles on arrival at Finningley airfield ‘Taffy’ Bowen promptly whipped out a couple of spanners and removed the DC generator off the merlin engine and headed off for his meeting.
Putting the generator on a table in the MD’s office he explained to him and the works chief engineer that they required an AC generator of identical size and fittings, capable of generating around 100 volts, frequency between 500/1000 cycles and able to deliver not less than 500 watts.
Whilst ‘Taffy’Bowen and the MD had lunch Mr Tustin the chief engineer worked up a specification. After lunch the design specification was presented as being 80 volts at 1200/2400 cycles with a max output of 800 watts. Metropolitan-Vickers considered if required they could have the first order ready in a month. So ‘Taffy’ Bowen promptly flew back to Bawdsey Manor to ‘sort out the paper work’. Apparently the explosions within various civil service and treasury offices in Whitehall about ‘following procedure and due processes’ could be heard as far away as Bawdsey! But the standard AC aircraft generator used by the RAF for many years was ready in time and built in huge numbers.

Once the Ultra high frequency receiver had been installed in the Flamingo the tests began. As explained by R.V. Jones he was looking to find Lorenze type radio guidance beacons signals. To test that such beacons could be located the aircraft was flown down to Croydon where the Imperial Airways Lorenze system was duly picked up. During the flight no other signals were picked up however the other box had contained a prototype of a Gee receiver working on 30Mhz. On the trip back the time signals from the three trials ground stations were picked up and positional fixes plotted by Francis Chichester on a gridded chart. The system was seen to be practical and accurate enough. Now what was required was a systematic investigation of the systems range and it’s susceptibility to jamming. With this successful trial the advent of a production Gee system and it's introduction became a little closer and would help make long range night bombing would be vastly more practical. The first Gee type navigation system set the RF type 23/am 10d/1016 would soon be ready for production.
 
Last edited:

Driftless

Donor
Gladiators(or other obsolescent aircraft) as barter for select goods? i.e. The Italians and Norwegians swapped Caproni Ca.310's for dried cod. Pre-war Britain has the Sterling to pay outright, but might there other benefits to doing any transaction via barter?
 
It looks like you have deleted 494 of the 746 production Gladiators built and substituted more Hurricanes and Henley's.

IOTL 186 of the 746 production Gladiators built were exported. That left 560 for the British air services (231 Mk I, 231 Mk II and 98 Sea Gladiators). Of the 186 that were exported, 43 were taken from Air Ministry contracts (22 Mk I for Belgium, 15 Mk II for Portugal and 6 Mk II for Norway). The other 143 were direct sales (if that's the right expression).

Unfortunately I don't know how many of the 252 Gladiators built in 1937 IOTL were for the RAF and how many were for export. However, it will include some of the following:
26 Latvia (Aug-37 to Nov-37)
14 Lithuania (Oct-37 to Nov-37)
37 Sweden (Jun-37 to ?)
22 Belgium (Sep-37 to May 38)
36 China (1937-38)

135 Total
AFAIK all the following were delivered 1938-39 so ITTL will they be Hurricanes?
6 Norway Mk I - later brought up to Mk II stanard
4 Ireland Mk I
2 Greece Mk I
18 Sweden Mk II
6 Norway MK II
15 Portugal Mk II - Portuguese expressed an interest in 30 more, but did not materialise

51 Total

View attachment 399984
According to the Belgian Wings website their 22 Gladiators were delivered as follows:
6 - June 1937
9 - September 1937
4 - March 1938
3 - April 1938​
 
So technically the Ones from march 38 onwards could be ex RAF at a discount. Mind you they bought Hurricanes as well as having a licence to build then IIRC.
 
Speaking of good will weren't some of the sales on Britain's part about diplomatic relations and for certain countries building up allies or friendly neutrals capabilities for deterrent purposes? IIRC several countries came looking to buy Hurricanes during the run up to or early parts of the war but had to be politely refused due to shortages.
The first 600 Hurricanes were ordered from Hawker on 3rd June 1936 to Contract 527112/36. The last aircraft was to be delivered on 31st March 1939.

In the end the 600 aircraft were delivered 15th December 1937 to 6th October 1939. (Source Putnams, Hawker Aircraft)

According to Aircraft for the Few by Michael J.F. Bowyer 475 Hurricanes had been delivered by 3rd September 1939 of which 75 had been struck off charge, leaving the RAF with 400.

According to Air Britain's Royal Air Force Serials L1000 to L9999, published in 1979, a grand total of 101 Hurricanes from the first batch were not delivered to the RAF. Instead they were exported as follows:

Hurricanes exported from first batch.png


However, this is the only source I know of that says Turkey received 28 Hurricanes. Most, including the Putnams book on Hawker aircraft says that only 15 Hurricanes went to Turkey and they were the aircraft delivered in September 1939

The next 300 Hawker-built Hurricanes were ordered to Contract 751458/38 were delivered 29th September 1939 to 1st May 1940. (Source Putnams, Hawker Aircraft). Of these:
12 aircraft went straight to Yugoslavia in February 1940 and another
12 aircraft went straight to Finland in February 1940.​

However, my serial numbers spreadsheets say that this batch was built to Contract 692230/37 and was delivered between November 1939 and February 1940.

The first batch of Gloster-built Hurricanes was one of 500 aircraft built to Contract 962371/38. My serial numbers spreadsheet says that they were delivered from November 1939 to June 1940. The delivery dates come from Air Britain's Royal Air Force Serials P1000 to P9999 published in 1978.
 
On 1st September 1939 I have the following aircraft combat ready in Fighter command OTL.
Hurricane 347 reserves 3 (= 340)
Spitfire 187 reserves 83 (= 270)
Blenheim IF 111 reserve none.
Gladiator 76 reserve 142 (= 218)
Gauntlet 26 reserve 100 (= 126)

I am fairly sure that those figures cannot be correct. the reserve of hurricanes certainly looks way to low.
According to the RAF Handbook 1939-45 the fighter strength of the RAF on 1st September 1939. The first column is what Fighter Command had. The second column is the total on RAF charge; thus, of a complete "stock" of 1,099 fighters.
Fighter Command Aircraft 1st September 1939.png


The later edition of the Putnams Aircraft of the RAF Since 1918 had an appendix giving the aircraft the RAF had on charge at the outbreak of World War II. According to that it had a total of 10,019 aircraft, which included.

RAF Fighters September 1939 - Thetford Mk 2.png


I have mentioned the Lysander because I think more Hurricanes or Spifires should have been ordered instead. I have mentioned the Henley because it's one of the favourite aircraft in AH and because I think Gloster should have built more Hurricanes in their place.
 
According to the RAF Handbook 1939-45 the fighter strength of the RAF on 1st September 1939. The first column is what Fighter Command had. The second column is the total on RAF charge; thus, of a complete "stock" of 1,099 fighters.
View attachment 400176

The later edition of the Putnams Aircraft of the RAF Since 1918 had an appendix giving the aircraft the RAF had on charge at the outbreak of World War II. According to that it had a total of 10,019 aircraft, which included.

View attachment 400180

I have mentioned the Lysander because I think more Hurricanes or Spifires should have been ordered instead. I have mentioned the Henley because it's one of the favourite aircraft in AH and because I think Gloster should have built more Hurricanes in their place.
While I am at these are the aircraft in Bomber Command on 1st September 1939 according to Chas Bowyer in the RAF Handbook 1939-45.

Bomber Command September 1939 - Bowyer.png


The book actually says 1,809 Bleneheims, but this is a typo as I have another source that says 1,089. The Total RAF includes the Blenheims in Fighter Command.

Incidentally the Fighter Command Blenheims weren't night fighters. They were for the Air Component of the British Expeditionary Force. Furthermore there were a stopgap for the Boulton Paul Defiant.

These are the bombers of all types at September 1939 from Putnams Aircraft of the Royal Air Force. This includes army co-operation and general purpose aircraft. Some of the older types were either in service as trainers or in storage.

Bombers September 1939 from Putnams Aircraft of the Royal Air Force.png


In addition to the 1,055 bombers of the Hawker Hart family the RAF still had 54 Hawker Demon two-seat fighters, 357 Hart Trainers and 145 Hind Trainers. This brought the total number of Harts in the RAF up to 1,611 which represented 16% of its total strength.
 
I first put this up in Post 13 on Page 1.

It's from an official Air Ministry document I found in the National Archives in a file about Expansion Scheme F.

Air 20-67 12.10.36.png
 
6.13 The RAF Is Not Just Bomber And Fighters
6.13 The RAF is not just Bomber and Fighters.


With the clouds of war getting darker over Europe Sir Phillip and the AM had taken stock of all the RAF aircraft types in service. The obvious weak link was transport aircraft. Ever a low priority. The two most modern aircraft of the RAF fleet were the Hadley Page Harrow and the Bristol Bombay both of these aircraft were bomber transports and in the case of the Harrow currently the bomber role was it’s prime function. the Vickers Valencia a derivative of the Vickers Victoria was now a dedicated transport aircraft but as a fixed undercarriage biplane was well past it’s prime.
In time of war civilian aircraft could be co-opted but transports would remain a low priority. With this in mind it was suggested to Sir Phillip that some of the less well established companies be invited to tender transport aircraft designs using non-strategic material and non-front line engines. Amongst others, General Aviation, Airspeed and Miles Aircraft were all approached and whilst not given a specification per say, they were given a very broad set of operational requirements.
Of existing designs, the last two Armstrong Whitworth Ensigns had been completed with Alvis Pelides engines instead of the original Armstrong Whitworth Tigers. A 20% power increase definitely improved the hot and high performance of the aircraft and Imperial Airways petitioned the AM for enough Pelides engines to be made available to re-engine the rest of the fleet. The passenger version of the Flamingo was also an option but would probably require a dedicated shadow factory. Overtures were made to the Australian government about setting up a production facility in Australia. Having an indigenous source of transport aircraft and the maritime patrol version was seen by the AM as having obvious benefits to the Australians.

In the middle of June a positive hoard of professors and graduate students had descended on various RAF and AM establishment’s. Sir Phillip was astonished at the success of Tizards overtures to the University establishment. and the diversity of expertise that had volunteered. The use of physicist’s, chemists, engineers and mathematicians were easy enough to understand but the utilization of Phycologists, physiologist’s, economist’s and myriad others was a little less obvious unless one had grasped the context of operational research as it was now being applied to the AM and RAF. Other services especially the FAA were also investing in OR to hone the equipment and the operational use to which it was put.

In July the prototype Avro Manchester took to the air for the first time. Though designated as a medium bomber, with a bomb load approaching four and a half tons it was by current standard in the RAF really a heavy bomber. Powered by two of Fairy’s Monarch engines the first flight trials were going well though directional stability was not as good as desired and a central fin would later be added. As the aircraft came to a standstill after it’s first flight Roy Chadwick the Manchester’s designer had paused beside the flight engineers desk and enquired how the test had been for him. The response had been a rather gruff exclamation that “if you are going to give me four sets of Bloody engine dials to watch why not give it four engines to match!” Much later people who were there would claim that Roy Chadwick departed very deep in thought.

Preparations for the evacuation of the research Team from Bawdsey Manor and the relocation of the Flight testing from Martlesham Heath were now well advanced. Having made the decision to relocate to Cheltenham The RDF flight would go to Staverton and the A&AEE would move to Boscombe Down which was close enough for easy access by the scientists when required. Without a CH within 100 miles it was decided that Bawdsey Manor would continue as the development station for that form of RDF along with CHL. However for GCI it was decided to bring forward in the program the installation of the RDF system scheduled for Cricklade as this was close enough to Cheltenham to be used as a trials and OR site. Hence this site was to be ready by October as a contingency. To minimise the dislocation and interruption of the Research and development work carried out at Bawdsey in the event that the evacuation was ordered, Rowe, ever the competent administrator. Had assigned about half the staff (principally those who owned or had access to their own vehicles) to the advance party who would grab all the available paperwork and portable material required to keep working and depart for the new site in whatever transport was to hand. The remainder would pack up what was left including the less portable items and follow on with the official transport.

Discussions with Sir Hugh Dowding could often be called fraught to say the least, Sir Phillip had over the years got the measure of Sir Hugh and new that he would always fight for what he considered was required for fighter command to be fit for purpose. They had two particular problems at the moment, One was that Fighter Command was some 40% below the establishment considered necessary for the defence of the UK. The other problem was that 11 group had been responsible for covering the entire south of England from Landsend to the Foreland in Kent and as far north as Bristol and the northern suburbs of London. It was too large an area for a single group headquarters too control and fight. the area west of a line from Bournemouth on the south coast heading north east past Middle Wallop up to the north of Oxford was becoming the responsibility of no 10 Group with it’s head quarters at Box near Bristol. Some squadrons were being transferred from no 11 group and AAF squadrons were also being activated to provide the necessary fighter squadrons.

Even as 10 group was forming there was a need to find additional squadrons for 13 group which currently only existed on paper with a head quarters near Newcastle. Sir Phillip and Newall the CAS arrived at a plan whereby on the call up of reserves for war, eighteen new fighter squadrons would be formed. These would be given mark 1a Spitfires and Mark 1a/b Hurricanes from the war reserve stocks. As new Spitfire Mk1b and Hurricane MkIc cannon armed fighters came available off the production lines they would go to Squadrons in 12 and 11 groups first, who’s existing Mk1a’s and b’s would go to restock the war reserve. It was not perfect but with both Langley and Castle Bromwich starting to produce fighters in quantity it was a legitimate risk to take.

The other good news was that the air sea rescue system was finding its feet or should that be sea legs. Launches were now stationed at, Ramsgate, Sheerness, Felixstowe, Lowestoft and Grimsby. With more stations to follow and Walrus search and rescue air craft were being assigned to airfields from Llydd and Manston in the south to Drem and Leuchars in the North. With the Walrus amphibians a decision had been made that though they were in Coastal/Maritime Command squadrons, to allocate squadron or flight size size units to be based on the most convenient airfield for their area of operation irrespective of the host service.
 
That basically brings us up to the DOW on 3rd September 1939. I will try and post a resume tomorrow of the changes from OTL in this time line. I will include an OOB for the RAF if I can.
 
According to the Belgian Wings website:
22 Gloster Gladiators were ordered 27th September 1936 (15 to be built by Gloster and 7 by SABCA). Deliveries started June 1937, but the signature of the contract was delayed until May 1938 because negotiations were started for the license production of the Gladiator by the Belgian aeronautical industry (Sabca). In the end this never materialized. The second batch of 9 aircraft arrived in September 1937 and the 7 aircraft assembled by SABCA were delivered March April 1938.​
20 Hawker Hurricanes were ordered from Hawker in March 1939, while Avions Fairey S.A. (the Belgian company) made a deal with Hawker's to build 80 Hurricanes under license agreement. Deliveries of the Hawker aircraft began in May 1939 and 15 had been delivered by September. The 5 remaining aircraft had been delivered by May 1940.​
As mentioned earlier Avions Fairey S.A. of Gosselies acquired the license production for 80 additional machines, ordered by the Belgian Government on June 8th, 1939 with "bon de commande N° 39/281". To manage this large scale production a company named SORAMA based at Brussels was created to act as central office for the reception and storage of all basic materials for this production process. Avions Fairey at Gosselies was responsible for the overall production of the aircraft while Sabca was contracted to deliver 80 sets of wings for the Hurricanes. The first Belgian build Hurricane, H-42 (c/n H10042) was delivered to the Aéronautique Militaire in April 1940, while H-43 was test flown in early May 1940. Commandant Fernand Jacquet, Commercial director of Avions Fairey S.A. said that a large number of Hurricanes airframes was finished but could not be delivered because of the lack of engines (to be delivered from the U.K.). Some equipment and parts saved before the German bombardment of Gosselies were shipped to Britain according to a note by Jules Genin, Aé controller at Fairey, addressed to Lt. Col Wouters Belgian Military Attaché at London.​
40 Fiat C.R.42 ordered in December 1939 (Fiat charged 30% more than Brewster did for their 40 Buffaloes). 30 had been delivered to 10th May 1940 and another 4 were delivered by 19th May, but were diverted to Bordeaux but only 3 of them arrived.​
40 Brewster Buffaloes ordered December 1939. The first aircraft left the factory on 27th April 1940 and ended up in Bordeaux where it was captured by the Germans (still in it's delivery crate) when France surrendered. The next 6 were loaded aboard the French aircraft carrier Bearn on 16th June 1940 to be shipped to France. However, France surrendered on 20th June and the Bearn was ordered to sail to Martinique. The 33 remaining aircraft were taken over by the RAF.​
Green and Fricker say that 34 Fiat C.R.42s were built in Belgium, that 80 Buffaloes were ordered and that when the Germans invaded the Belgian Government was negotiating for the purchase of Fiat G.50 fighters from Italy, but does not give the prices.
 
Last edited:
Top