AHC: Peerless Air Ministry
- Thread starter perfectgeneral
- Start date
Yes to all of the comments about the wellington but it is always the 'exception that proves the rule' The Factory at Broughton set a world record for building a wellington in 24 hours and 40 minutes in 1943!!
and so they did. But what they made was still a Wellington and they were still churning them out in 1945.
I think the Wimpy was kept in production for so long because its replacement the Vickers Warwick was delayed.
Had Specification B.1/35 been for an aircraft powered by a quartet of engines in the 1,000hp class instead of a duet in the 2,000hp class my guess is that a Warwick powered by 4 Merlin or 4 Hercules engines would have replaced the Wellington on the production lines in 1940.
IIRC 3 factories built the Wellington, i.e. Weybridge, Blackpool and Chester. Furthermore, before the war there were plans for Gloster to build it too. IIRC the initial order was to be for 64 Wellingtons, but I can't remember if it got as far as a formal contract and the issuing of Air Ministry serial numbers.
One of the 3 factories that built the Wellington also build several hundred Lancasters. So if ITTL the Air Ministry gets its finger out over changing the Avro P.13/36 from a twin-Vulture aircraft (Manchester) to a quadruple-Merlin aeroplane (Lancaster) early enough it could have built Lancasters from the start.
Had Specification B.1/35 been for an aircraft powered by a quartet of engines in the 1,000hp class instead of a duet in the 2,000hp class my guess is that a Warwick powered by 4 Merlin or 4 Hercules engines would have replaced the Wellington on the production lines in 1940.
IIRC 3 factories built the Wellington, i.e. Weybridge, Blackpool and Chester. Furthermore, before the war there were plans for Gloster to build it too. IIRC the initial order was to be for 64 Wellingtons, but I can't remember if it got as far as a formal contract and the issuing of Air Ministry serial numbers.
One of the 3 factories that built the Wellington also build several hundred Lancasters. So if ITTL the Air Ministry gets its finger out over changing the Avro P.13/36 from a twin-Vulture aircraft (Manchester) to a quadruple-Merlin aeroplane (Lancaster) early enough it could have built Lancasters from the start.
Too bad the legendary toughness couldn't be extended to cover the soft squishy things inside the fuselage...
above the Myth, below the reality!
Yes it was a pity but more got home than really should have and that is a real bonus, especially if it's your aircraft!
No, I'd go for cancelling B.1/35 - with the Vickers design getting selected instead of the Stirling - whether it gets called the Warwick or Windsor who knows!?
Do you mean cancel the Vickers B.1/35 and select the Vickers submission to B.12/36 instead of the Stirling?
Does anyone have the service history of that aircraft.
Personally I would not be at all happy about flying in an aircraft that took the shortest time to build....I would be constantly wondering what had been missed off.
Sure but how much performance is lost from the weight of that frame?
I do not have any data on weight differences between the different construction methods. All I can say is that the Geodetic structure was used by the Vickers bombers was originally devised and designed by Barnes Wallace for use in Airships. Foe airships lightness of structure is a very critical factor so I would assume that it was a very efficient design with a high strength/weight ratio.
Yes, in 1930. Technology moved on a lot in the next 10-15 years. Saying that I don’t know a massive amount about aircraft design, but am purely going off the fact that I can’t think of any modern designs use that method of construction?
6.02 To Raise Lazarus. Pension off the lame and the Halt
Part 6.02 To Raise Lazarus. Pension off the lame and the Halt
There were concerns within the AM over diversity of types of aircraft within the RAF, as of January 1938 Fighter Command had seven different fighter types in its OOB. The Plan was to reduce this to Five types by the end of the year and to have all domestically based squadrons flying monoplanes within that time scale. These aircraft Types would consist of three day-fighters and two night fighters. There was provision for an overseas/tropical fighter which at this stage was planned to be the Folland Falcon. To that end the Australian government had been approached with an aid package to build the fighter in Australia. First from parts kits and then from domestic sources as they were developed. It was planned for the Alvis Pelides to be manufactured in Australia as well.
In bomber command the aircraft diversity situation could well be considered worse. The following different night bombers, Heyford, Overstrand, Hendon, Harrow, Whitley, Wellington and Hampden, were all in service with the Heyford, Overstrand,Hendon and Harrow all due to be retired from front line service by late 1939. They would however have to soldier on for some time in Training Command or Transport Command. Additional to these seven types there were four day or light bomber types in service. These being the Gorden, Hind, Blenheim, Wellesley and Battle, with the first Henley squadron forming in late 1938. As the new monoplane bombers arrived in 1938 the Gordens were sent overseas and the Hinds were recycled as advanced trainers to Training Command.
With the, unofficial as yet, division of Bomber Command into two separate operational entities:- Strategic Heavy night bombers for attacking the enemies ability to wage war and day bomber support for daylight tactical bombing of targets in support of military operations along the battle line, the existing aircraft types were being dived between the two tasks. Currently the heavy units were being converted to fly the Whittley, Wellington and Hampden bombers with the promise of the Warwick, Stirling ,Manchester and Halifax to follow as soon as they were in production as night bombers. There was still a faction within the RAF who remained to be convinced that modern fighters and control methods could inflict unsustainable losses on a daylight bombing attack. The only way that this conflict within the RAF would be resolved would be as a result of conflict and the probable loss of invaluable aircrews.
Training Command was struggling to teach the navigation skills required to hit long range targets at night. Late in 1938 Training Command had been joined by an RAFVR officer air navigation expert by the name of Francis Chichester. Despite poor eyesight he had flown a De Havilland Gypsy Moth from England to Australia and from New Zealand across the Tasman Sea to Australia via Norfolk and Lord Howe Islands. Using the technique of offset navigation to find these tiny spots in the vastness of the Southern Ocean. For this feat of precision air navigation, he had been awarded the inaugural Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators Johnston Memorial Trophy. At one of the monthly RAF Club Technical talks and dinner evenings (inaugurated by sir Phillip in 1936) in early 1939, Francis Chichester, after giving the evenings talk on air navigation, was introduced to R.V. Jones where they spent the rest of the evening discussing electronic aids to navigation.
Technical developments were happening right across the RAF and Aircraft Industry. Though in the case of 100 octane fuel it was more a development within the Petrochemical Industry. As far back as 1931 RR. had for their Buzzard engine in the Schneider Trophy achieved 2000hp by using a special fuel. Rod Banks an employee of the Ethyl Corporation had on the 8th of January 1937 delivered a paper to the Royal Aeronautical Society and the Institute of Petroleum which laid out the case for the RAF adopting 100octane fuel ‘even if the supply of such fuel were limited, because the use of high-duty equipment might prove decisive in the early stages of a war’.
Subsequently 1937 small batches of 100octane fuel had been imported from the USA and sent to the major engine manufacturers for testing in their engines. Sir Phillip could see from the figures, that he was presented with, resulting from these trials the effects on engine power of the higher octane fuel. With Sir Henry Tizard, as he now was, a world class authority on fuels, explained and advocated the whole sale adoption of 100 octane fuel for the RAF. The decision was made in 1938 to do so once, secure and sufficient supplies, could be obtained. Now in early 1939 the adoption of 100 octane fuel was becoming a more important factor for various reasons. These factors were primarily the increasing weight of RAF Fighters due to the adoption of new equipment including, Variable pitch propellers, self-sealing fuel tanks, Armoured Glass windscreens, IFF sets and cannon armament. All this added weight eroded the performance of the fighters, adding more power would offset this. Compared to the standard 87 octane fuel for the Merlin II, 100 octane fuel boosted the power output by about 30% to 1,310 Hp. This increase in power and the ability to use more intake air pressure from the super charger or ‘Boost’ as it was known was what really made the Spitfire Mk1b and the Hurricane II with their, two twenty mm Hispano cannons and Four Browning .303 MGs, a viable fighter. The Defiant also benefitted to the same measure. However not all engines could benefit to the same extent power wise with the use of 100octane fuel. Due to the limited supply available and until greater stocks could be secured only Fighter Command would transit to the new fuel and this was planned for immediately after the summer exercise planned for August.
Once again this came round to maximising production efficiency. Supermarine at Woolston were currently building Spitfire MkI’s with wooden propellers and eight .303 machine guns. This factory was scheduled to Change over to the Spitfire MkIb with variable pitch propeller and the mixed armament of 2x 20mm cannon and four .303 Machine guns once 100 octane fuel Merlin’s became available. Castle Bromwich was due to build the Spitfire Mk2 with variable pitch propeller and the mixed armament of 2x 20mm cannon and four .303 Machine guns with the 100 octane fuel Merlin from the outset. Production on a limited scale was meant to have commenced early in the new year and so far not a single fuselage or wing had been constructed, let alone an entire airframe. As for the Hurricane, Kingston was changing to the Mk1b with metal clad wings, Gloster’s at Hucclecote were steadily producing Hurricane MkIb’s and Hawkers new Factory at Langley was starting to build Hurricane MkIbs and had a target of a plane a day by Easter.
There were concerns within the AM over diversity of types of aircraft within the RAF, as of January 1938 Fighter Command had seven different fighter types in its OOB. The Plan was to reduce this to Five types by the end of the year and to have all domestically based squadrons flying monoplanes within that time scale. These aircraft Types would consist of three day-fighters and two night fighters. There was provision for an overseas/tropical fighter which at this stage was planned to be the Folland Falcon. To that end the Australian government had been approached with an aid package to build the fighter in Australia. First from parts kits and then from domestic sources as they were developed. It was planned for the Alvis Pelides to be manufactured in Australia as well.
In bomber command the aircraft diversity situation could well be considered worse. The following different night bombers, Heyford, Overstrand, Hendon, Harrow, Whitley, Wellington and Hampden, were all in service with the Heyford, Overstrand,Hendon and Harrow all due to be retired from front line service by late 1939. They would however have to soldier on for some time in Training Command or Transport Command. Additional to these seven types there were four day or light bomber types in service. These being the Gorden, Hind, Blenheim, Wellesley and Battle, with the first Henley squadron forming in late 1938. As the new monoplane bombers arrived in 1938 the Gordens were sent overseas and the Hinds were recycled as advanced trainers to Training Command.
With the, unofficial as yet, division of Bomber Command into two separate operational entities:- Strategic Heavy night bombers for attacking the enemies ability to wage war and day bomber support for daylight tactical bombing of targets in support of military operations along the battle line, the existing aircraft types were being dived between the two tasks. Currently the heavy units were being converted to fly the Whittley, Wellington and Hampden bombers with the promise of the Warwick, Stirling ,Manchester and Halifax to follow as soon as they were in production as night bombers. There was still a faction within the RAF who remained to be convinced that modern fighters and control methods could inflict unsustainable losses on a daylight bombing attack. The only way that this conflict within the RAF would be resolved would be as a result of conflict and the probable loss of invaluable aircrews.
Training Command was struggling to teach the navigation skills required to hit long range targets at night. Late in 1938 Training Command had been joined by an RAFVR officer air navigation expert by the name of Francis Chichester. Despite poor eyesight he had flown a De Havilland Gypsy Moth from England to Australia and from New Zealand across the Tasman Sea to Australia via Norfolk and Lord Howe Islands. Using the technique of offset navigation to find these tiny spots in the vastness of the Southern Ocean. For this feat of precision air navigation, he had been awarded the inaugural Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators Johnston Memorial Trophy. At one of the monthly RAF Club Technical talks and dinner evenings (inaugurated by sir Phillip in 1936) in early 1939, Francis Chichester, after giving the evenings talk on air navigation, was introduced to R.V. Jones where they spent the rest of the evening discussing electronic aids to navigation.
Technical developments were happening right across the RAF and Aircraft Industry. Though in the case of 100 octane fuel it was more a development within the Petrochemical Industry. As far back as 1931 RR. had for their Buzzard engine in the Schneider Trophy achieved 2000hp by using a special fuel. Rod Banks an employee of the Ethyl Corporation had on the 8th of January 1937 delivered a paper to the Royal Aeronautical Society and the Institute of Petroleum which laid out the case for the RAF adopting 100octane fuel ‘even if the supply of such fuel were limited, because the use of high-duty equipment might prove decisive in the early stages of a war’.
Subsequently 1937 small batches of 100octane fuel had been imported from the USA and sent to the major engine manufacturers for testing in their engines. Sir Phillip could see from the figures, that he was presented with, resulting from these trials the effects on engine power of the higher octane fuel. With Sir Henry Tizard, as he now was, a world class authority on fuels, explained and advocated the whole sale adoption of 100 octane fuel for the RAF. The decision was made in 1938 to do so once, secure and sufficient supplies, could be obtained. Now in early 1939 the adoption of 100 octane fuel was becoming a more important factor for various reasons. These factors were primarily the increasing weight of RAF Fighters due to the adoption of new equipment including, Variable pitch propellers, self-sealing fuel tanks, Armoured Glass windscreens, IFF sets and cannon armament. All this added weight eroded the performance of the fighters, adding more power would offset this. Compared to the standard 87 octane fuel for the Merlin II, 100 octane fuel boosted the power output by about 30% to 1,310 Hp. This increase in power and the ability to use more intake air pressure from the super charger or ‘Boost’ as it was known was what really made the Spitfire Mk1b and the Hurricane II with their, two twenty mm Hispano cannons and Four Browning .303 MGs, a viable fighter. The Defiant also benefitted to the same measure. However not all engines could benefit to the same extent power wise with the use of 100octane fuel. Due to the limited supply available and until greater stocks could be secured only Fighter Command would transit to the new fuel and this was planned for immediately after the summer exercise planned for August.
Once again this came round to maximising production efficiency. Supermarine at Woolston were currently building Spitfire MkI’s with wooden propellers and eight .303 machine guns. This factory was scheduled to Change over to the Spitfire MkIb with variable pitch propeller and the mixed armament of 2x 20mm cannon and four .303 Machine guns once 100 octane fuel Merlin’s became available. Castle Bromwich was due to build the Spitfire Mk2 with variable pitch propeller and the mixed armament of 2x 20mm cannon and four .303 Machine guns with the 100 octane fuel Merlin from the outset. Production on a limited scale was meant to have commenced early in the new year and so far not a single fuselage or wing had been constructed, let alone an entire airframe. As for the Hurricane, Kingston was changing to the Mk1b with metal clad wings, Gloster’s at Hucclecote were steadily producing Hurricane MkIb’s and Hawkers new Factory at Langley was starting to build Hurricane MkIbs and had a target of a plane a day by Easter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_F.5/34
if I recall.
And an excellent update as always, the navigational aides development will help bomber command in the years to come and could have applications for the FAA. The use of 100 ocane fuel is something i'm not too aware of but the short lived boost in combat would be bloody useful. The Mk II Spits and Hurricanes with the mixed cannon/MG armament make them easily equal to the BF-109F's they'll encounter which had twin MGs and a cannon firing through the prop-hub and give them a larger punch against bombers, always a problem for the RAF in OTL until the introduction of cannons in the Spitfire and Hurricane.
Its good that the Aussies are getting the Falcon, this means they won't have to develop the Wirraway or other aircraft and the factory will hopefully be up and running by some time in early 1940 with production coming on line in time for any Japanese adventurism which may happen.
A quick question as I genuienly don't know the answer. What's the advantage of the metal wings over the fabric ones? My granddad always said that hurricanes were easier to repair because of the fabric wings vs the metal ones on Spits, so what do the metal wings bring to the equasion?
Structural stability of control surfaces. IIRC fabric covers had a tendency to ballon away from the supporting structure during high speed/high g manoeuvres. This made the plane harder to control. Metal surfaces aren’t affected by that. Also I think air resistance due to drag would be reduced due to the potentially smoother surface.
Metal wings are stiffer, do not suffer deformation of the surface shape to the same extent as fabric does, this limits both speed and lift. Also though bullets just punch holes through canvas unlike metal it burns quickly and will be torn off the underlying structure. The pictures I posted of the damaged Wellingtons well illustrate the loss of fabric. Later in the war rockets can be used from metal wings.
Ninjaed!
The Folland Fighters are based on the Gloster F5/34 with some elements from the Folland F117 (OTL a 1942 design around the Bristol Centaurus engine) and Gloster's proposals for a Griffon engine development of the F5/35 for the FAA.
Ninjaed!
The Folland Fighters are based on the Gloster F5/34 with some elements from the Folland F117 (OTL a 1942 design around the Bristol Centaurus engine) and Gloster's proposals for a Griffon engine development of the F5/35 for the FAA.