AHC/PC/WI: Nationalist China Regain Qing-Empire Borders

trurle

Banned
First of all I doubt warlordism can be removed so quick-n-easy - Chiang was still unable to do it by the Second Sino-Japanese War and the incorporation of those warlords into the ROC made corruption even more rampant, reducing the efficiency and effectiveness of their war machine.
However, assuming it does take place: they'd lose it due to needing all troops fighting both the Communists and Japanese, and with the Soviets having all the intent of taking them back. Even if the PRC was propped up quickly enough they wouldn't be able to bargain for the lost territories.

IF they fight both Communists and Japanese. As i said earlier, the Japanese were opportunistic. The direction of their main strike was not decided up to March, 1941. If the Soviets are intensively fighting with Japanese..and if Japanese start fighting USSR earlier (1934-1937 instead of 1939) (before mass introduction of efficient Soviet BT-5 and BT-7 light tanks) and not losing to Soviets outright..the whole balance of power swings much more to the Chinese side.
 
Now the reason I said Nationalist and not Communist China was because if Communist than China wouldn't be as willing to invade the USSR. Changed title if it makes things more flexible.
 
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IF they fight both Communists and Japanese. As i said earlier, the Japanese were opportunistic. The direction of their main strike was not decided up to March, 1941. If the Soviets are intensively fighting with Japanese..and if Japanese start fighting USSR earlier (1934-1937 instead of 1939) (before mass introduction of efficient Soviet BT-5 and BT-7 light tanks) and not losing to Soviets outright..the whole balance of power swings much more to the Chinese side.

Kind of what I'm looking for.
 
IF they fight both Communists and Japanese. As i said earlier, the Japanese were opportunistic. The direction of their main strike was not decided up to March, 1941. If the Soviets are intensively fighting with Japanese..and if Japanese start fighting USSR earlier (1934-1937 instead of 1939) (before mass introduction of efficient Soviet BT-5 and BT-7 light tanks) and not losing to Soviets outright..the whole balance of power swings much more to the Chinese side.

The Japanese were occupying large parts of China since the beginning of the 1930s. I doubt that Chiang, as much a fascist and pro-Japan as he was, could make a peace deal with so much territory lost and happily march off north without being immediately shot by his inferiors.
 
The Japanese were occupying large parts of China since the beginning of the 1930s. I doubt that Chiang, as much a fascist and pro-Japan as he was, could make a peace deal with so much territory lost and happily march off north without being immediately shot by his inferiors.

The USSR could try to attack Japan before the German invasion.
 
Exactly. Forces Japan to divert troops and resources and allows Chinese more wiggle room.
No, it means more troops in Manchuria, which means they're never going to take back Manchuria. That means Outer Manchuria and Mongolia - both of which are Qing territories - are out the window.
And the Chinese will still struggle to remove the Japanese from Shanghai, the military was just plain incompetent.
 
Ok, I'm really winging it here, but how about Zhang Zuolin adds Mongolia to his territories after consolidating Beijing in 1927, the Bogd Khaanate having somehow held up against less successful Soviets, who also fail to control a White Russian warlord state from taking over Transamur. This White Russian Transamur state is then somehow incorporated into the Republic of China. Xinjiang's warlord develops closer ties with the centre than in our timeline (somehow) and Tibet is conquered by the three generals of Guangxi running wild like they always did.

Just some brainstorming here.
 
Ok, I'm really winging it here, but how about Zhang Zuolin adds Mongolia to his territories after consolidating Beijing in 1927, the Bogd Khaanate having somehow held up against less successful Soviets, who also fail to control a White Russian warlord state from taking over Transamur. This White Russian Transamur state is then somehow incorporated into the Republic of China. Xinjiang's warlord develops closer ties with the centre than in our timeline (somehow) and Tibet is conquered by the three generals of Guangxi running wild like they always did.

Just some brainstorming here.

Zhang was certainly seen as generally pro-West, so I suppose he'll have the support.
But invading Mongolia seems like a waste of resources when half of Manchuria is still basically under anarchy(Korean Communists were running wild in the east, and the Japanese were closing in at the south).
 
zeppelinair said:
But invading Mongolia seems like a waste of resources when half of Manchuria is still basically under anarchy(Korean Communists were running wild in the east, and the Japanese were closing in at the south).
Well, let's say the Japanese government manages to control the Kwantung Army.

...Oh wait this isn't the ASB forum. :p
 

trurle

Banned
The Japanese were occupying large parts of China since the beginning of the 1930s. I doubt that Chiang, as much a fascist and pro-Japan as he was, could make a peace deal with so much territory lost and happily march off north without being immediately shot by his inferiors.

Nobody say the war is easy. Chinese will strike and cease-fire Japan and Soviet alternately, depending on who is going to win. The move to outer Mongolia may have a rationale to cut the Siberian railroad. Japan can be handled (or most likely, failed to be handled:() later.

Actually, Manchukyo will be most difficult part to reclaim. After 1932, Japanese has made too serious investments into it. Even made some weapons factories running by locals. They even outsource the production of armoured cars. It indicate their seriousness.
 

trurle

Banned
Zhetysu, Ladakh, Askai Chin, Arunachal Pradesh, and Shaksgam Valley are also areas that belong to the Qing Dynasty. What are the odds of reclaiming those?

This part is the outright impossible. Taking a piece of territory from the power (British) who have the control over import of most of your military equipment..what remains? Dadao charge?:mad:
IF seriously, to get Indian territories, the British Commonwealth must crumple first. As it was still pretty robust by 1941, impossible.

Approximately the same likehood is for Soviet preventive attack on Japan. Zero probability. Nobody considered it seriously. May be the Soviets can take down Manchukyo.. but what to do next? The Japanese fleet is still in the sea, the coastal defences stretched additional thousand kilometres. To try, Soviets must get Japanese Navy smashed first by some other guy. It happened in OTL in 1944 by the hands of US.
If war between USSR and Japan to happen in the 1930-1940 time frame, the Soviets are strictly on defence. Counting each coastal defence gun and each shell they can push through the Siberian Railroad bottleneck. According to history of 1941 great move from Siberia to German front, the capacity of railroad was ~ 1.5 divisions per week. And division consume its own weight of ammunition in a week of heavy fighting.
 
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This part is the outright impossible. Taking a piece of territory from the power (British) who have the control over import of most of your military equipment..what remains? Dadao charge?:mad:
IF seriously, to get Indian territories, the British Commonwealth must crumple first. As it was still pretty robust by 1941, impossible.

Approximately the same likehood is for Soviet preventive attack on Japan. Zero probability. Nobody considered it seriously. May be the Soviets can take down Manchukyo.. but what to do next? The Japanese fleet is still in the sea, the coastal defences stretched additional thousand kilometres. To try, Soviets must get Japanese Navy smashed first by some other guy. It happened in OTL in 1944 by the hands of US.
If war between USSR and Japan to happen in the 1930-1940 time frame, the Soviets are strictly on defence. Counting each coastal defence gun and each shell they can push through the Siberian Railroad bottleneck. According to history of 1941 great move from Siberia to German front, the capacity of railroad was ~ 1.5 divisions per week. And division consume its own weight of ammunition in a week of heavy fighting.

Zhetysu is not Indian...
 

trurle

Banned
gh

Zhetysu is not Indian...

Ok, for Zhetyusu the condition to be transferred to China is the aftermath of the bloody and prolonged Soviet-Japanese war. But to get that far Chinese must overcome an extraordinary logistical problems. As i remember road map of 1941, Xinjinang-Balkhash connection was 2 "caravan trails".
 
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