AHC/PC: Religion important in Europe in the 21st century

I put this in before 1900 because I feel this would probably require quite a relatively early POD, perhaps the late 1800s, perhaps earlier.

What would be needed to prevent the rise of secularism/decline of religiousity and Church attendance seen in Europe over the last century?

I'm thinking of Christianity being as important in say, France or Italy in the modern day as Islam is in Jordan, Morocco, Oman etc.

Is this plausible? Or is secularism inevitable?
 
I think the two World Wars did a lot to destroy religious faith. I mean, while a lot of religious people were heroic and brave, it didn't stop the Nazis from wiping out your village.

I also think if you lowered the education levels that would work. Basically the beauty of education is that it empowers people to see many more options than what they saw before. This includes impiety as one such option or even wondering whether piety has value.

I think there is also the bad example (or stereotype) of the Islamic world wear piety is "important" and the typical European looks down at that. It also reminds them of a time when the Churches of Europe could burn someone at the stake the same way ISIS beheads someone on tv, and its not that different.
 

Yuelang

Banned
Actually, that might be *MUCH* more simpler by aborting the formation of Italy, and let the Papal State gobble up all Italian peninsulla. With Pope still having real military power, there would be more interests to be pious BOTH on Catholic and Protestant fronts.
 
During WW2, Pius XII had written a resignation letter to take effect if the Nazis/Fascists arrested him, and that the Curia were under orders to move to Portugal in that event.

Let's say in 1941 when Hitler seemed invincible and irrefutable proof of atrocities was streaming into the Vatican. Pius XII decides to martyr himself. He makes a lengthy denunciation of fascist ideology and requires every parish priest in Nazi-occupied Europe to read out the statement on Sunday. All Catholics in Nazi-ruled Europe is demanded to refuse orders which violate Catholic doctrine. He had already secretly evacuated the Curia and the Vatican files to Lisbon, leaving him virtually alone.

He waits for the blackshirts. They pick him up and detain him in the mountains.

Meanwhile, Hitler is incensed. He orders all Catholic bishops in the Reich to be executed, and makes a speech denouncing Christians as spiritually degenerate unworthy of existence. Many clergy, Catholic and Protestant, are killed and/or sent to the camps. All churches are closed and their clergy defrocked, and church activities are forced underground. But many Gestapo officers are themselves unwilling to partake in the persecution and suffer reprisals themselves. Many Wehrmacht soldiers are court marshalled, make passionate defenses, and are executed on Hitler's orders.

Allied radio propaganda then frame the war in religious terms (a fight for Christendom against godless fascism). Even Stalin follows suit, with his propaganda highlighting how Jesus was a proto-Marxist in a feudal society and therefore extremely far-sighted.

After the war, the church is hailed as the only institution which kept Europe alive during the dark period. The martyrdom of so many Christians is hailed, and the anniversary of Pius XII's speech is celebrated across Europe and its offshoots. The Cold War starts with both sides claiming their ideology more properly represents Christianity, with the other as a distortion. Priests (both surviving and new ones) are as revered as war veterans IOTL. Hence, everyone, even those who don't literally believe a piece of flour is the flesh of a zombie who was miraculously born after a fairy said so, is up early on Sundays.
 
Some of the early socialists were Christian, but the movement became decidedly non-religious (and often anti-religious) after Marx. If there is a way to butterfly him away and have a committed Christian write something similar to the Communist Manifesto, then things could be quite different.

Alternatively, have the French Revolution never get to the radical phase where it adopted dechristianization, so that the Church still operates in France (albeit in perhaps a slightly reformed state) throughout the process and the notion of radically breaking with religion never gains wide acceptance.
 
Some of the early socialists were Christian, but the movement became decidedly non-religious (and often anti-religious) after Marx. If there is a way to butterfly him away and have a committed Christian write something similar to the Communist Manifesto, then things could be quite different.

I love this idea. Considering that the teachings of Jesus have more in common with Socialism than Capitalism it would give the industrialists hives.

Such a second reformation/movement on the Catholic church would be FUN.
 
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I love this idea. Considering that Christianity has more in common with Socialism than Capitalism it would give the industrialists hives.

That would be FUN.

That'd turn the idea of 'Protestant work ethic' on its head, with Catholicism becoming a bastion of capitalism (regulated capitalism a la distributism, naturally). Yes. This would be fun.
 

fi11222

Banned
I put this in before 1900 because I feel this would probably require quite a relatively early POD, perhaps the late 1800s, perhaps earlier.
The moment religion was mortally wounded in Europe is the wars of religions in the XVIth century.

Ergo, the best POD in my view to have more religion in the XXIst century is to have a more lopsided outcome of said wars. Either the Catholics exterminate the protestants and we have Europe fall into a South American-like religion-infused sleepiness; basically forever. Or the Prostestants win, at least in France and Germany, and we have a Europe much more like the US, imbued with strong grass-roots evangelicalism.

This might result in interesting scenarios, like a Calvininstic Franco-German republic on the Swiss model by the XVIIth or XVIIIth century, for example.
 
The moment religion was mortally wounded in Europe is the wars of religions in the XVIth century.

I have to disagree. Yes, the religious wars eventually caused governments to respect the Cuius regio, emus religio principle and not interfere too much in each other's domestic religious situation, but the common people still went to church in large numbers for the next few centuries. It was only really in the 20th century that countries became massively secularized.
 

fi11222

Banned
I have to disagree. Yes, the religious wars eventually caused governments to respect the Cuius regio, emus religio principle and not interfere too much in each other's domestic religious situation, but the common people still went to church in large numbers for the next few centuries. It was only really in the 20th century that countries became massively secularized.
I said "mortally wounded", not "dying". Between a mortal wound and the consequent death, some time elapses. For a human being, it may be a few hours or a few days. On a historical scale, it may be centuries.

Religious wars in Europe in the XVIth and XVIIth century created disillusionment among the intellectual elites about the value of religion. This translated into the emergence of increasingly secularized intellectual debates in the XVIIth and XVIIIth century. By that point, it was only a tiny fraction of the population that was impacted: the highly educated. But this tiny fraction proved to be hugely influential. It went on to lead the "enlightenment" which gave birth to the secular and anti-religious world views which, ever increasingly popularised through the XIXth and XXth centuries, gave rise to the overwhelmingly secular world we live in today. Historical processes take time.
 
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The moment religion was mortally wounded in Europe is the wars of religions in the XVIth century.

Ergo, the best POD in my view to have more religion in the XXIst century is to have a more lopsided outcome of said wars. Either the Catholics exterminate the protestants and we have Europe fall into a South American-like religion-infused sleepiness; basically forever. Or the Prostestants win, at least in France and Germany, and we have a Europe much more like the US, imbued with strong grass-roots evangelicalism.

This might result in interesting scenarios, like a Calvininstic Franco-German republic on the Swiss model by the XVIIth or XVIIIth century, for example.

Could it make a recovery from that mortal blow, though?
 
You never know. But things do not look too bright; don't they ?

Religion in general's a human thing, so I do not doubt it will survive in some form.

As for the sons of Abraham, we remain. The Western world is eating itself alive, but the faiths remain in other places, some unfortunately in ugly forms, but on the whole we remain.
 

trajen777

Banned
Their are lots of ways for a massive rebirth :

1. The world is due (my 2 kids are epidemiologists ) for the next wave of pandemic - today tomorrow 5 / 10 years from now. Medicine and the increasing resistance of viral / bacterial to modern medicine could cause a reversal of faith in science and find more spiritual meaning.

2. Economic disaster (think 2008 x 5) -- lets say China housing bubble bursts (set by major banks to be 12 x more exposed then the USA housing mkt)

3. Major Wars --- as the saying goes their are no atheists in a fox hole

4. Major astro / historical findings that point towards God

5. The massive debt oF ALL NATIONS - USA - Europe - CHINA -- LET ALONE THE COMPLETE disaster of South American / African economy's

6. Europe unable to integrate the Muslim refugees into their societies and have a backlash (see Sweden - Germany ) (Cologne - Swedish Music festival -- French inability to integrate 3rd generation Muslims into French society)

7. I think as others have said - WW1 & WW2 was a secular turning point for Euro Christianity.
 

Pesigalam

Banned

jahenders

Banned
Alternatively, have the French Revolution never get to the radical phase where it adopted dechristianization, so that the Church still operates in France (albeit in perhaps a slightly reformed state) throughout the process and the notion of radically breaking with religion never gains wide acceptance.

I think that's a huge one. Once France (long a stalwart), drifted away from the Catholic Church, it provided two examples: 1) The possible, 2) How NOT to break with religion. In any case, it got more people in other countries thinking about it.

Two others:
1) The protestant reformation itself. Once you establish that THE church is NOT unquestionable, many started down a road toward impiety. If, instead, the Catholic Church had instituted more changes in response to earlier reformers, Luther et al might not have wound up essentially creating a SEPARATE set of churches. Rather, they'd just be further advocates of reform WITHIN the church. Once you create separate churches, you arise at a question of legitimacy. The Catholic church could/does claim unbroken succession from the original Apostles of Christ. The Protestant churches are man-made variations on the Catholic (or other Protestant) themes. Thus, you have people start pondering why THEY can't create their own version of Christianity.

2) Henry V is similar. If the Catholic Church had found a way to grant him his divorce/annulment and he didn't widen the schism, you'd avoid lots of dissent and bloodshed in Britain, which contributed to an overall lessening of faith.
 
Their are lots of ways for a massive rebirth :

1. The world is due (my 2 kids are epidemiologists ) for the next wave of pandemic - today tomorrow 5 / 10 years from now. Medicine and the increasing resistance of viral / bacterial to modern medicine could cause a reversal of faith in science and find more spiritual meaning.

2. Economic disaster (think 2008 x 5) -- lets say China housing bubble bursts (set by major banks to be 12 x more exposed then the USA housing mkt)

3. Major Wars --- as the saying goes their are no atheists in a fox hole

4. Major astro / historical findings that point towards God

5. The massive debt oF ALL NATIONS - USA - Europe - CHINA -- LET ALONE THE COMPLETE disaster of South American / African economy's

6. Europe unable to integrate the Muslim refugees into their societies and have a backlash (see Sweden - Germany ) (Cologne - Swedish Music festival -- French inability to integrate 3rd generation Muslims into French society)

7. I think as others have said - WW1 & WW2 was a secular turning point for Euro Christianity.

I'm not quite sure about that.

1. You might have a point, but in the end, science will save us from the epidemic, and no amount of religious faith will do so. I think most secular people will think of it that way, and that would limit religious rebirth.

2. At least in the US, religious attendance and the rates of atheism/agnosticism continued to increase during the recession years at the end of last decade, so I doubt this would cause that.

3. Also doubtful, since religion continued to decline in Europe after WWII.

4. Never going to happen in a million years.

5. Not sure what you mean, but see 2.

6. That's not really causing a rebirth in Christianity, as far as I'm aware. It is doing wonders for the secular right-wing, however.

7. True.
 
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