AHC/PC: Azkenazi Jewish state in Pre-Unification Germany

[GohanLSSJ2]

I just KNOW I'm likely going into ASB territory, but... How possible can it be for the European (Specifically Azkenazi/Germanic) Jewry to create their own state in the mess that was pre-Unification Germany?

The PoD can be the Napoleonic wars or earlier if preferred. But before the rise of Otto von Bismark.

 

[Napoleonrules]

I just KNOW I'm likely going into ASB territory, but... How possible can it be for the European (Specifically Azkenazi/Germanic) Jewry to create their own state in the mess that was pre-Unification Germany?

The PoD can be the Napoleonic wars or earlier if preferred. But before the rise of Otto von Bismark.

Before Hitler is more likely, but before German Unification seems way too early... you'd have to see Napoleon successful in his Egyptian conquest, I think that would be the most likely. Napoleon freed the Jews from the confines of the ghettos and made them equal citizens. However, Napoleon also was Arab/Muslim-friendly when in Egypt. He'd have to juggle the conflicting ability. But I'm not aware there would have been a big Zionist movement created if Napoleon even ever in an ATL say- "Jews! Come to your homeland!" Certainly French, Dutch, and British Jews would probably say no; German Jews MAYBE, Austrian Empire and Polish Jews might be more willing. A trickle from Spain and Italian states. Now, if for some reason "for their protection" Napoleon makes it mandatory for Jews to move, we might see a successful Israel (would they even have taken the name Israel? Prior to 1948 the only people who called themselves Palestinians were the Jews in the Palestine Mandate, perhaps the nation would be called Judea, Judah, or even Palestine). ATL *Israel would be a good buffer state if Acre is as far as Napoleon holds on to and he doesn't lose Egypt like OTL. Egypt can create a more Egyptian French hybrid culture and society cut off from the Arabs of Greater Syria and the Arabian peninsula.

 

[Iserlohn]

Well, this is a toughie...

1) The state with the best conditions for the German Jewry was probably Prussia and even they did pass several laws infringing upon Jewish rights. Maybe some small states along the Rhine and the Free Hanseatic Cities also offered good conditions for Jewish residents but I'm no expert. Also to build upon Napoleonrules's point, Napoleon did at first force the Rhinebund states to accept Jews as full citizens, but that right was abridged later during his reign.

2) Most Jews sought integration into German society, not a separation from it, as a separate "Jewish" state within Germany would've created. Also noteworthy is that German society at the time had a tendency to be very divisive: general citizenship as we know it today was only really introduced as a concept during the Rheinbund era, before that a class system was firmly in place. That would also make Jewish recognition a bit more difficult.

3) I sadly don't have accurate numbers but in the middle of the 18th century (1750-ish), there were about 70,000 Jews in Germany, with about two to three thousand living in Berlin, which probably had the highest Jewish population of any German city at the time. So overall it's pretty hard to find enough Jews to even form anything but a city state and well, city states were on the way out since the start of the Napoleonic Wars.

So yeah, I'm saying ASB unless Prussia for some reason decides to honor a noteworthy Jewish resident of theirs with a landed title and sovereignty within the new German Confederation, who then offers Jews to settle there in larger numbers. That's the only way I can see it and frankly that alone is very hard to accomplish.

 

[GohanLSSJ2]

Before Hitler is more likely, but before German Unification seems way too early... you'd have to see Napoleon successful in his Egyptian conquest, I think that would be the most likely. Napoleon freed the Jews from the confines of the ghettos and made them equal citizens. However, Napoleon also was Arab/Muslim-friendly when in Egypt. He'd have to juggle the conflicting ability. But I'm not aware there would have been a big Zionist movement created if Napoleon even ever in an ATL say- "Jews! Come to your homeland!" Certainly French, Dutch, and British Jews would probably say no; German Jews MAYBE, Austrian Empire and Polish Jews might be more willing. A trickle from Spain and Italian states. Now, if for some reason "for their protection" Napoleon makes it mandatory for Jews to move, we might see a successful Israel (would they even have taken the name Israel? Prior to 1948 the only people who called themselves Palestinians were the Jews in the Palestine Mandate, perhaps the nation would be called Judea, Judah, or even Palestine). ATL *Israel would be a good buffer state if Acre is as far as Napoleon holds on to and he doesn't lose Egypt like OTL. Egypt can create a more Egyptian French hybrid culture and society cut off from the Arabs of Greater Syria and the Arabian peninsula.

Actually, I was thinkinh along the lines of the Azkenazi Jews in the collapsed HRE to carve out their own state (with a Jewish but also Germanic identity, with Yiddish as language) amongst all the other"little Germanies" in the Aftermath of Napoleon's shenanigans.

 

[Napoleonrules]

Well, this is a toughie...

1) The state with the best conditions for the German Jewry was probably Prussia and even they did pass several laws infringing upon Jewish rights. Maybe some small states along the Rhine and the Free Hanseatic Cities also offered good conditions for Jewish residents but I'm no expert. Also to build upon Napoleonrules's point, Napoleon did at first force the Rhinebund states to accept Jews as full citizens, but that right was abridged later during his reign.

2) Most Jews sought integration into German society, not a separation from it, as a separate "Jewish" state within Germany would've created. Also noteworthy is that German society at the time had a tendency to be very divisive: general citizenship as we know it today was only really introduced as a concept during the Rheinbund era, before that a class system was firmly in place. That would also make Jewish recognition a bit more difficult.

3) I sadly don't have accurate numbers but in the middle of the 18th century (1750-ish), there were about 70,000 Jews in Germany, with about two to three thousand living in Berlin, which probably had the highest Jewish population of any German city at the time. So overall it's pretty hard to find enough Jews to even form anything but a city state and well, city states were on the way out since the start of the Napoleonic Wars.

So yeah, I'm saying ASB unless Prussia for some reason decides to honor a noteworthy Jewish resident of theirs with a landed title and sovereignty within the new German Confederation, who then offers Jews to settle there in larger numbers. That's the only way I can see it and frankly that alone is very hard to accomplish.

How about the Rothchild family? Francis II made them barons. Queen Victoria made a baronet and baron title for the British branch of the family as well. Plus they were literally the wealthiest family on earth at the time, in the same manner as the "Walmart heirs" are today in America. The Rothchild family was instrumental in getting Brazil their independence and literally Zimbabwe wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Rothchilds creating Rhodesia, and it's possible without the Rothchilds loans that Japan wouldn't have had the capital to fund their success in the Russo-Japanese War. Being able to do all that... I think creating a "Jewish homeland" wouldn't be beyond their power should a PoD be created where they have the will to do so.

Think the butterflies from a Jewish neutral state (a la Switzerland) in Alsace-Lorraine. Bismark and Prussia blame the Jewish state for keeping Germany from being unified, Franco-Prussian war occurs with Prussia going through "New Zion" (or whatever A-L is called); pogroms and persecution, mass deportations. Jews are so few and far between in Germany that when it comes time for ATL Hitler to need a scape goat it's not going to be the Jews. But I'm sure he has plenty of other people to blame and it won't be the immediate cause if he's butterflied away from power.

 

[black angel]

after the Rhineland massacres of 1096 the Jewish population of Germany dropped a lot and was never very large afterward, at unification in 1871 the Jewish population was 512,000, Germany's population was 41 million

past that they didn't really live all in one place so, yeah...

 

[Alon]

Actually, I was thinkinh along the lines of the Azkenazi Jews in the collapsed HRE to carve out their own state (with a Jewish but also Germanic identity, with Yiddish as language) amongst all the other"little Germanies" in the Aftermath of Napoleon's shenanigans.

Why would it be in Germany, though? The demographic center of European Jewry was Poland right up until WW2.

 

[Just a Rube]

Actually, I was thinkinh along the lines of the Azkenazi Jews in the collapsed HRE to carve out their own state (with a Jewish but also Germanic identity, with Yiddish as language) amongst all the other"little Germanies" in the Aftermath of Napoleon's shenanigans.

Actually, Napoleon's shenanigans mainly led to all the "little Germanies" going away, as most of the tiny states were eaten by bigger states. There's a reason that the map of Germany in 1814 (or even 1806) looks far less horrifying than that in 1648.

 

[GohanLSSJ2]

Actually, Napoleon's shenanigans mainly led to all the "little Germanies" going away, as most of the tiny states were eaten by bigger states. There's a reason that the map of Germany in 1814 (or even 1806) looks far less horrifying than that in 1648.

Hmm... I see...

Well, how about this? A movement, a sort of Jewish revivalism, springing up in the Polish, Austrian and Eastern German Jews in the late XVIII Century.

Amidst the chaos of the French Revolution, after one pogrom too many, the Jews rise up in arms, with the Jewish eltes giving indirect support and supplies to the Rebellion.

Also, while it's true the number of Jews was fairly small in Germany, they could see an exodus of other Azkenazi Jews from other parts of Europe, who run to their new Republik von Judäa/Republik fun Ihudh, wich forges a Gemano-Jewish identity with Yiddish as language.

I was thinking, though... It needs not be independent. If it gains enough traction and power, it might be able to help German Unification, ensuring a position of local autonomy and protection of their rights in the larger Federation.

 

[Westphalian]

Look at this map, it is from 1895:

There are three main areas with a higher-than-usual number of Jewish Germans:

a) Alsace.
Having it as an explicitly Jewish buffer states between France and Germany is rather ASB.

b) Hesse, with parts of Franconia and the Palatinate.
Again, an Jewish state here is very difficult to imagine, unless we speak about a really small city state somewhere along the Main or Rhine. Alas, the golden age of the SchUM cities is long gone.

c) the Province of Posen.
That might be very remotely possible, if for some reasons the Prussian state become on hand even more anti-Polish, but on the other hands begins to see Yiddish-speaking Jews as just another sub-type of Germans. So they begin a policy of strongly encouraging the emigration of Poles while resettling Yiddish-speakers from all over Germany and Central and Eastern Europe in Posen.

Regarding a noble patron for the settlement of Jewish immigrants: I don't want to sound like a stereotypical antisemitic conpiracy theorists, but among the best candidates seem members of the different branches of the Rothschild family, especially those in Frankfurt or Vienna. Other possibilities are Moritz von Hirsch from Munich, Gerson von Bleichröder in Berlin or Abraham von Oppenheim in Cologne.