Venocara

Banned
A couple of Alternate History Challenges:

  • Make the Paraguayan War last longer than it did (substantially so) with a POD in 1864.
  • Make the Paraguayan War more initially successful for Paraguay than in OTL without letting them win the war with a POD in 1864.
Any responses are welcome, but please do not tell me that the Paraguayans couldn't have held out any longer or that they couldn't have been more successful, because that isn't helpful. Thanks!
 
I don't remember the name of the battle of the top of my head, but the Paraguayans tried to seize the Brazilian ships operating in the theater while they were in port. They've failed, but had they've been successful, the war would have been prolonged and more initially successful.
 
Paraguay can win at Riachuelo, but that is as difficult as it is for Germany to capture Moscow in 1941. If they successfully do it then you have the first item fulfilled.
 

Venocara

Banned
I don't remember the name of the battle of the top of my head, but the Paraguayans tried to seize the Brazilian ships operating in the theater while they were in port. They've failed, but had they've been successful, the war would have been prolonged and more initially successful.

I think you might be talking about the Battle of the Riachuelo.

Paraguay can win at Riachuelo, but that is as difficult as it is for Germany to capture Moscow in 1941. If they successfully do it then you have the first item fulfilled.

Do you know a plausible way for the Paraguayans to win that battle?
 
DoW Argentina, don't DoW Brazil. Don't make your goal of invading Uruguay transparent until you've concluded peace with Argentina.
 
But wouldn't Brazil and Uruguay come to the aid of Argentina? Wasn't that the point of the Triple Alliance?

They allied because Paraguay attacked them, not the other way around. In fact Brazil and Argentina were historically rivals (and continued to be after the war).
 
Do you know a plausible way for the Paraguayans to win that battle?

No... They can only win if there is either ASB intervention or if the brazilians screw it up badly. To have a idea the battle was so easy that at a point the brazilian admiral Barroso, who had a flagship with a iron hull noticed that the junkt hat he paraguayans brought to the battle was completely made of a very cheap wood, so he just ordered his ship forward and crushed three paraguayan ships in a row

But wouldn't Brazil and Uruguay come to the aid of Argentina? Wasn't that the point of the Triple Alliance?

Like it was said above, nobody wanted war but Lopez,we didn't allied to prevent the invasion of a member of a diplomatic alliance, but because Lopez literally walked with a army at the three countries at the same time.
 

Venocara

Banned
No... They can only win if there is either ASB intervention or if the brazilians screw it up badly. To have a idea the battle was so easy that at a point the brazilian admiral Barroso, who had a flagship with a iron hull noticed that the junkt hat he paraguayans brought to the battle was completely made of a very cheap wood, so he just ordered his ship forward and crushed three paraguayan ships in a row

But how could the Brazilians have screwed it up badly?

Like it was said above, nobody wanted war but Lopez,we didn't allied to prevent the invasion of a member of a diplomatic alliance, but because Lopez literally walked with a army at the three countries at the same time.

Ok... But didn't Brazil start the war by invading Uruguay?
 
But how could the Brazilians have screwed it up badly?

The best way is arrogance, maybe Lopez spreads minsinformation that his fleet is even worse shape than OTL and Brazil send a smaller force that get's crushed. Then after that Brazil sends a larger force and crushes the Paraguayans but this already allows them to have a short time of naval dominance.


Ok... But didn't Brazil start the war by invading Uruguay?

wait wat
 

Venocara

Banned
That was another war (The Uruguayan War) concurrently to the early stages of the war, that did influence Lopez's decision to go to war.

So when the war stopped being Paraguay and Uruguay v Brazil and start being Paraguay v Triple Alliance?
 
But why did Paraguay attack them?
Argentina was barely out of the civil wars (and not quite so), so it's possible that Solano Lopez thought that Argentina would break apart instead of fighting. Which wasn't that far off - there were mutinies and rebellions in Argentina during the war, but Argentina wasn't going to balkanize
 

Venocara

Banned
Argentina was barely out of the civil wars (and not quite so), so it's possible that Solano Lopez thought that Argentina would break apart instead of fighting. Which wasn't that far off - there were mutinies and rebellions in Argentina during the war, but Argentina wasn't going to balkanize

But what did that have to do with the rest of the war?
 
But how could the Brazilians have screwed it up badly?



Ok... But didn't Brazil start the war by invading Uruguay?
the causus belli was that Brazil and Argentina were backing one side in an attempt to over throw the gov't, while the other side (the ones in power) called on Paraguay for assistance. Brazil sent troops to aid the insurgents, which prompted Lopez to escalate the war. To get troops to Uruguay, he requested permission to cross Argentina to get at the Brazilians. Argentina said no, and Lopez took them on, too. It is not really an invasion on the part of Brazil, more meddling with the power structure.
Lopez picked a rare moment when Argentine interests aligned with Brazil's. His best chance of winning is to wait for a time when Brazil and Argentina aren't aligned. But if we have to stick with the OTL start of the war, Paraguay has to not take on both at the same time. Militarily, Uruguay is unimportant in the fight as their forces are not a factor. This means not declaring on Argentina. They could attack northward, which they did OTL, and keep on going northward. They can then hope that Argentina denies Brazilian access. The war becomes a stalemate: Brazil has no way to get to Paraguay, while Paraguay can hold on to the Matto Grasso do Sul region of Brazil. This doesn't help Uruguay any. Eventually, If Brazil wants to dislodge Paraguay, they'll need to build roads to the Northern/Eastern part of Paraguay. If this were all that easy, it would have been done OTL. So, it'll take a lot of time. Then, the war can really begin.
 

Venocara

Banned
the causus belli was that Brazil and Argentina were backing one side in an attempt to over throw the gov't, while the other side (the ones in power) called on Paraguay for assistance. Brazil sent troops to aid the insurgents, which prompted Lopez to escalate the war. To get troops to Uruguay, he requested permission to cross Argentina to get at the Brazilians. Argentina said no, and Lopez took them on, too. It is not really an invasion on the part of Brazil, more meddling with the power structure.
Lopez picked a rare moment when Argentine interests aligned with Brazil's. His best chance of winning is to wait for a time when Brazil and Argentina aren't aligned. But if we have to stick with the OTL start of the war, Paraguay has to not take on both at the same time. Militarily, Uruguay is unimportant in the fight as their forces are not a factor. This means not declaring on Argentina. They could attack northward, which they did OTL, and keep on going northward. They can then hope that Argentina denies Brazilian access. The war becomes a stalemate: Brazil has no way to get to Paraguay, while Paraguay can hold on to the Matto Grasso do Sul region of Brazil. This doesn't help Uruguay any. Eventually, If Brazil wants to dislodge Paraguay, they'll need to build roads to the Northern/Eastern part of Paraguay. If this were all that easy, it would have been done OTL. So, it'll take a lot of time. Then, the war can really begin.

How long would it take for Brazil to be able to attack Paraguay? And furthermore, how can Paraguay do some serious damage to either Argentina or Brazil in this scenario?
 
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