AHC: P-51 Mustang even more prominent

As anybody and his brother knows, P-51 is one of my favourites. So let's make it even more produced, with eariler and greater impact on the ww2, for more users etc, with greater post-war use etc.
 
Earlier switchover to the Merlin. US allows Brits to build the airfrae in exchange for a licence build of the Merlin for their planes.
 
Earlier switchover to the Merlin. US allows Brits to build the airfrae in exchange for a licence build of the Merlin for their planes.
Or better Allison. There was a period 1935-1938 where engine progress went very slowly. If the early 1943 Allison was available in late 1941 the Allison powered Mustang would have a much better reputation.

That said an earlier switch to the Merlin is definitely a good option.

Was there ever any proposals to increase the mustang's armament. 6 heavy machine guns was a light armament later in the war.
 
Last edited:
More consultation with the british on perfecting cannon? Although this would have broader knockon effects on US Military aviation for the rest of the war.
 
More consultation with the british on perfecting cannon? Although this would have broader knockon effects on US Military aviation for the rest of the war.
Maybe, I was thinking more along the lines of adding another pair of heavy machine guns but cannons work for me too.

That said it's important to remember that while the armament is light more guns mean more weight so maybe they did hit the sweet spot for the engine and airframe historically. I don't know,
 
If we're going with my suggestions, it looks like an earlier, broader, more equitable
exchange of technology with between the US and the UK during WWII.
 
If we're going with my suggestions, it looks like an earlier, broader, more equitable
exchange of technology with between the US and the UK during WWII.
Ive notes for a timeline with a 1935 anglo italian war. War finishes late 1936. Some of the early British technology (for example the first hurricanes) looks really really good in this war with win/loss ratios of 10:1 against Italian fighters.

America pretty much goes to Britain with an open cheque book to license everything they can after the war. Britain debates gouging America with high license prices but decide instead to charge moderate rates but demand that they can license any America technology that appeals.

That could lead to your cannon armed early Merlin Mustang.
 
More consultation with the british on perfecting cannon? Although this would have broader knockon effects on US Military aviation for the rest of the war.

Ordnance never tried the obvious, scaling up the M2 to 20mm.
Japanese IJA did just that in 1942, and it worked great.

37kg and 850rpm with a 20x94 cartridge which was a lengthened MG151/20 cartridge, just a bit less powerful than the Hispano.

but they were testing enlarged versions, using 25 x 115 cartridge, then into the Ho-155, which used a 30x114 cartridge
 
Thanks for the feedback.
What might help with whole P-51 programe is a bit more haste on account of the USAAF - eg. test the XP-51 in August/September 1941 (XP-51 arrived at Wrigley Field at 24th Aug), not wait until March of 1942 (!!) to commence with tests. Should give the reason to the AAC to make a contract with NAA for the P-51 as-is, and second source might be considered, not unlike what happened to the P-47 and USN's F4U that were to be produced by 3 factories each.
 

Deleted member 1487

As anybody and his brother knows, P-51 is one of my favourites. So let's make it even more produced, with eariler and greater impact on the ww2, for more users etc, with greater post-war use etc.
Easy, just have the design initially use the Packard Merlin and the rest is history. It's utility then goes up and when the need for a long range escort emerges, it is easier to make that redesign happen.
 

Deleted member 1487

Give it two or four 20 mm guns.
Not sure the wings were set up to handle the HS.404, certainly not within the wings that is. If they could it would only be 1 per wing, which then leaves them with only 2 cannons and less overall firepower.
 
Not sure the wings were set up to handle the HS.404, certainly not within the wings that is. If they could it would only be 1 per wing, which then leaves them with only 2 cannons and less overall firepower.

Mustang Ia (USAAF's name was 'P-51', ie. no suffix; 150 produced in 1942) was a version with 4 cannons (picture); the wing was much thicker than on the Spitfire or Fw 190, for example. Cannons were obviously the US-produced Hispano, belt-fed version
 

Deleted member 1487

Mustang Ia (USAAF's name was 'P-51', ie. no suffix; 150 produced in 1942) was a version with 4 cannons (picture); the wing was much thicker than on the Spitfire or Fw 190, for example. Cannons were obviously the US-produced Hispano, belt-fed version
How did that impact performance?
 

Deleted member 1487

4 cannons vs. just two decreased the speed from 396 to 390 mph, however the test on 4-cannon version was made on 20 HP less?? Climb would've been probably more decreased. Test report: link
How about maneuverability and range?

4 cannons vs. just two decreased the speed from 396 to 390 mph, however the test on 4-cannon version was made on 20 HP less??
Also not quite clear on what you mean here.
Edit:
looking at the report the 2 cannon 20mph loss was because the RPM and BHP was considerably less.
 
Ive notes for a timeline with a 1935 anglo italian war. War finishes late 1936. Some of the early British technology (for example the first hurricanes) looks really really good in this war with win/loss ratios of 10:1 against Italian fighters.

America pretty much goes to Britain with an open cheque book to license everything they can after the war. Britain debates gouging America with high license prices but decide instead to charge moderate rates but demand that they can license any America technology that appeals.

That could lead to your cannon armed early Merlin Mustang.

Write it up.

One thing that occurs with that PoD though is that with no axis presence in North Africa, France will probably fight on from Algeria,
meaning that perhaps the Mustang will be conceived as an order for the French. You might have more Mustangs overall, but fewer, if
any in US service.
 
Ordnance never tried the obvious, scaling up the M2 to 20mm.
Japanese IJA did just that in 1942, and it worked great.

37kg and 850rpm with a 20x94 cartridge which was a lengthened MG151/20 cartridge, just a bit less powerful than the Hispano.

but they were testing enlarged versions, using 25 x 115 cartridge, then into the Ho-155, which used a 30x114 cartridge
I've wondered about that as well. Also I wonder why they didn't simply re work the .50 cal case to fire some what larger explosive projectiles (maybe 15mm ?)
 
I've wondered about that as well. Also I wonder why they didn't simply re work the .50 cal case to fire some what larger explosive projectiles (maybe 15mm ?)
They did, in a way.
the .60 caliber T17. That was 15.2x114, from a not fielded 1941 AT Rifle. 1180gr. (76.5 g)AP at 3,600fps, so not a puny round.

It was used with a modified MG151 action, not Browning, and it never worked right from 1942 to 1946, when they changed to a Mauser MG213 Revolver platform.

Necked out, that cartridge became the 20x102, used in the Colt M39 that suffered from much jamming, to the M61 Vulcan in the '50s, that got away from gas operation
 
Write it up.

One thing that occurs with that PoD though is that with no axis presence in North Africa, France will probably fight on from Algeria,
meaning that perhaps the Mustang will be conceived as an order for the French. You might have more Mustangs overall, but fewer, if
any in US service.
Lot of work to be done on it. There's the butterflies from an Anglo Italian war. The details of the war. The diplomatic effects of an Anglo Italian war. Im reckoning an early Anschluss (around the time rheinland historically was remilitarised) due to the collapse of the Stresa front. The economic effects of an Anglo Italian war. Early rearmanent (probably all around might mean less Mustangs overall actually). More naval spending as the navy did well or less because there are less threats. The effects on Spain with Italy unable to provide support. America sees British equipment as doing well in the war so they license a lot.

How Germany is affected by Britain showing guts. Will they back down a lot earlier. If Japan goes on a rampage there will be a British Pacific fleet if the Mediterranean is safer.

What lessons will be learned from the war. How much more ready will the different parties be for war when it comes. The Mustang equivalent will be better because of more licensing of ideas but what wars will happen.
 
Top