AHC: Ottomans vassalize or conquer the White or Black Sheep Turks

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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The White Sheep Turks and the Black Sheep Turks* alternately controlled Persia and Mesopotamia and part of eastern Asia Minor after the Timurids and before the Safavids. Is there a way the emerging Ottomans can subordinate or outright conquer them.

*The Ak Koyunlu and the Kara Koyunlu, I forget which were which.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
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Mehmed II after he defeats Uzun Hasan. A dead Uzun Hasan is even better. You can have a vassal from Diyarbakir to Ardabil at least.

Not only the land, Mehmed would win this kick-ass helmet of Uzun's.


اوزون_حسن.jpg
Hopefully it doesn't get pierced or dented beyond repair in the process.
 

Marc

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In real history, the Ottomans were never delayed by the White Sheep. Why not flip the idea around, explore the consequences of the White Sheep inflicting a devastating defeat on the Ottomans, delaying their full entry into the Middle East, and incidentally preserving the last Byzantine state - Trebizond - perhaps into the early 17th-18th century(?).
A much more eurocentric Ottoman empire as a consequence?
 
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In real history, the Ottomans were never delayed by the White Sheep. Why not flip the idea around, explore the consequences of the White Sheep inflicting a devastating defeat on the Ottomans, delaying their full entry into the Middle East, and incidentally preserving the last Byzantine state - Trebizond - perhaps into the early 17th-18th century(?).
A much more eurocentric Ottoman empire as a consequence?

I wonder if a different sort of “defeat” of the White Sheep might not yield a similar result though—what if they became a vassal instead of outright conquest? This would make the main Ottoman border somewhere in Anatolia and turn their focus to Europe, while it will be down to the White Sheep to rule Armenia, Syria, etc. I don’t see Trebizond surviving this scenario, though.
 
In real history, the Ottomans were never delayed by the White Sheep. Why not flip the idea around, explore the consequences of the White Sheep inflicting a devastating defeat on the Ottomans, delaying their full entry into the Middle East, and incidentally preserving the last Byzantine state - Trebizond - perhaps into the early 17th-18th century(?).
A much more eurocentric Ottoman empire as a consequence?

Is extinct by 1461. The battle between them is in 1473.

So Trebizond is out of question
 
I wonder if a different sort of “defeat” of the White Sheep might not yield a similar result though—what if they became a vassal instead of outright conquest? This would make the main Ottoman border somewhere in Anatolia and turn their focus to Europe, while it will be down to the White Sheep to rule Armenia, Syria, etc. I don’t see Trebizond surviving this scenario, though.

Trebizond is already gone by 1473
 

Marc

Donor
Ah yes, I stand corrected - Trebizond was surrendered in 1461, and effectively obliterated immediately thereafter. (Now, the history of Pontic Greeks that survived despite all, into the 20th century is another fascinating story). My timing got mislaid in part to the romanticism of that famous marriage of Theodora Megale Komnene to Uzun Hasan in 1458 (small footnote to those who are Byzantine devotees, through Theodora, the Safavid dynasty is traced...), and having reread Dorothy Dunnet's "The Spring of the Ram: Book Two of the House of Niccolo", one of the best historical novel series ever written, and one of the few that deals with some of the events we're discussing on this thread.
 
Certainly. That would change a lot of dynamics. I also wonder if Persian identity would reemerge as *the* core identity of Iran in modern times, or not.

Although it is true, Twelver Shiism did give them their identity. However, it isn't as Sunni Turks were ended up like Sunni Syrian Arabs. They still developed their identity eventually.

However, remaining Sunni gives Persians the advantage of delivering Sunni scholars and in return influencing Sunnis from Morocco to Moluccas to Kazan to Kilwa. That is alot.
 
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