AHC:Ottoman Empire joines the Triple Entente

Your challenge, should you chose to accept it, is to get the Ottoman Empire to side with the Triple Entente instead of the Central powers. Bonus points to whomever can do so and keep the Ottoman Empire from somehow losing any territory.

Also, if possible, discuss what possible consequences this would have on both the outcome of the war, the post-war period, and the middle east.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Avoid the CUP coup and have the LU in charge of the Ottoman Empire would be a good start, although the Ottomans would probably just be neutral if they were pro- Entente. Would butterfly away the Bulgarian and Greek entries into the war too.
 
Hard a priori, considering that the Ottomans only have conflicts with Entente powers by 1914 and that Germany and AH had been the only ones that threw them a bone in recent memory. Maybe if Italy honors the Triple Alliance?
 

yourworstnightmare

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Donor
Hard a priori, considering that the Ottomans only have conflicts with Entente powers by 1914 and that Germany and AH had been the only ones that threw them a bone in recent memory. Maybe if Italy honors the Triple Alliance?
This is why I said a pro- Entente Ottoman Empire probably would be neutral.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
This is why I said a pro- Entente Ottoman Empire probably would be neutral.

Agreed.

The Ottomans would be looking for concessions to stay neutral. Forgiveness of loans. Help building Railroads. Redoing of unfavorable trade terms. Help with reintegrating/regaining Egypt, Libya, etc.
 
Hard a priori, considering that the Ottomans only have conflicts with Entente powers by 1914 and that Germany and AH had been the only ones that threw them a bone in recent memory. Maybe if Italy honors the Triple Alliance?

Italy honoring the Triple Alliance need an earlier set PoD, first a better relationship with A-H (better handling of the annexation crisis, Conrad and FF shut their mounth), second Giolitti accepting OE proposal to a Tunisia-like deal regarding Libya so Italy will not depleting her supply in the war (but this can create a lot of butterfly in the balkans) and so can partecipate at the war from the beginning and the relations with A-H will not worsen.
 
If the Ottomans stay neutral initially, could their hand be forced later on by events in the Balkans?

I presume Bulgaria is going to be much more cautious about moving against Serbia, but how long would that caution last?

Might the pro-CP faction maintain control in Greece under these changed circumstances?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
If the Ottomans stay neutral initially, could their hand be forced later on by events in the Balkans?

I presume Bulgaria is going to be much more cautious about moving against Serbia, but how long would that caution last?

Might the pro-CP faction maintain control in Greece under these changed circumstances?
I think Bulgaria and Greece would stay out of the war. Bulgaria would be wary of a pro- Entente Ottoman Empire next door, and not dare to make a move, while Greece just wouldn't have anyone to go to war with if Bulgaria and the Ottomans aren't in the war.
 
I think Bulgaria and Greece would stay out of the war. Bulgaria would be wary of a pro- Entente Ottoman Empire next door, and not dare to make a move, while Greece just wouldn't have anyone to go to war with if Bulgaria and the Ottomans aren't in the war.

That sounds like a terrible outcome for Austria, even with Italy in the war. Serbia holds down outsized numbers of men and material for much longer, and Russia has an open supply line to the West... Leaving Romania to build up and join the Entente at a convenient time.

I suppose the Italians and A-H navies will try to challenge Entente control of Mediterranean supply lines, but since the French were concentrated in the Med anyway, that just gives them something to do after escorting troop convoys from North Africa. Judging from OTL, I don't see Italian attacks across the Alps being decisive. The French and British aren't going to strip northern France or the defense of Paris in order to crowd more men into Alpine border fortresses. And by the time the Germans are ready to try to support that front themselves, they'll be very busy bailing out the Hapsburg monarchy, and confronting an increasingly well-supplied Russian army.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
That sounds like a terrible outcome for Austria, even with Italy in the war. Serbia holds down outsized numbers of men and material for much longer, and Russia has an open supply line to the West... Leaving Romania to build up and join the Entente at a convenient time.

I suppose the Italians and A-H navies will try to challenge Entente control of Mediterranean supply lines, but since the French were concentrated in the Med anyway, that just gives them something to do after escorting troop convoys from North Africa. Judging from OTL, I don't see Italian attacks across the Alps being decisive. The French and British aren't going to strip northern France or the defense of Paris in order to crowd more men into Alpine border fortresses. And by the time the Germans are ready to try to support that front themselves, they'll be very busy bailing out the Hapsburg monarchy, and confronting an increasingly well-supplied Russian army.
And if Italy doesn't stay loyal through handwavium, much worse.
 
And if Italy doesn't stay loyal through handwavium, much worse.

Side question, might Ethiopia join the Entente in this scenario in an attempt to gain an Italian port? Russia would be advocating for them, and I'm sure the British or French could secure some economic concessions if they wished.

Also, would the Ottomans want any Italian possessions (Dodecanese, Libya) in exchange for their benevolent neutrality?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Side question, might Ethiopia join the Entente in this scenario in an attempt to gain an Italian port? Russia would be advocating for them, and I'm sure the British or French could secure some economic concessions if they wished.

Also, would the Ottomans want any Italian possessions (Dodecanese, Libya) in exchange for their benevolent neutrality?
Well, Ethiopia was not really in shape to enter any war. This was the time of Iyasu V, and later the war to depose him.
 
The Entente Power would have to be willing to back the Ottoman Claims in he Baltic (which britain would never do) and they would have to be willing to train and fund military advancement (which France would never be willing to do)

Both these are key factors and why a power hungry ottoman leadership was so easily able to accept the German offers
 
The Entente Power would have to be willing to back the Ottoman Claims in he Baltic (which britain would never do) and they would have to be willing to train and fund military advancement (which France would never be willing to do)

Both these are key factors and why a power hungry ottoman leadership was so easily able to accept the German offers
Have the Ottomans claimed Aland again? :p

More seriously, I assume you mean Cyprus and other claims in the Aegean.


It should be important to mention that any pro-Entente OE will mean the Bosporus will remain open to the Russians, which is absolutely huge, for obvious reasons (90% of Russian grain exports pass through Black Sea ports, it'd be Russia's only non-blockaded warm water ports, a significant fraction of Russian trade passed through it, etc.)
 
Force Italy to return the Dodences, perhaps get bits of Thrace from either Bulgaria or or islands from Greece, depending how things go. Some land from Kars are returned. Maybe do something with influence in Albaniana and Herzovogina.
 
Well the most obvious benefit of an Entente Ottoman Empire or at least an Entente leaning neutral Ottomans is that it keeps the Dardanelles open for trade and means that the Middle Eastern theatre doesn't happen freeing up roughly two and a half million British troops and a million Russian troops from their Caucasus army. On the trade front Russia can now export all the wheat, IIRC they provided a high percentage of Europe's supply, that was forced to sit on the docks and rot so their financial situation is better and can use the money to import munitions and supplies. On the logistical front I seem to recall that they had a shortage of railway engines and rolling stock that stopped them from moving the supplies they did have to where it needed to go, so I could see the Allies shipping them as many as possible to help alleviate the situation. Also the rivers in south-western Russia would of helped move things about IIRC.

In the Middle East the Ottomans are probably going to demand and get the various capitulations they were forced to enter over the years repealed to stay friendly and if and when the Central Powers surrender I could see them unilaterally cancelling any they have with them as well. The Arab Revolt fomented by the British isn't going to happen. IIRC from reading the board it was the British and WW1 that really created it, on its own it wouldn't really happen to any great degree for a fair while and the Ottomans should be able to easily keep on top of it. If Italy does side with Central Powers then I could see Libya and the Dodecanese being returned to them, territory controlled by the British I don't think so. The other major difference would probably be no Persian campaign, so with no invasion you also don't get the Anglo-Persian Agreement.
 
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