AHC: oriental style martial arts in europe

Morty Vicar

Banned
The debate between formalised and informal styles (styles which have set moves vs those which don't, eg karate vs boxing) is interesting. A lot of the old karate masters felt that karate competitions weakened the art, because they removed techniques that were designed to be fatal or do serious injury. It's true that Muay Thai pracitioners tend to win mixed martial arts contests, but there is perhaps an argument to be made that it does not contain the deadly moves necessary for a real and serious fight.

I think Chinese martial arts tend to be more flowery and symbolic etc, often incorporating unnecesary acrobatics which look cool but leave the practitioner extremely vulnerable, for next to no gain. Wheras on the other hand the Japanese martial arts seem to have a more practical approach.

My understanding of martial arts in China is that they were developed by monks, who were forbidden from using weapons, but were allowed to defend themselves. They developed styles of fighting, often influenced by nature and philosophy. Perhaps it's unimaginative, but I suppose there could be some analogue to that with european monks. Or perhaps an earlier restriction on weaponry within towns and cities, may lead to the development of a self-defence system.

The major aspect here though is the fact that martial arts culture kept going, despite urbanisation, technological advances, increased civility and safety etc. Is it fair to say they experienced a revival of sorts?
 
I use tiger-fist jabs. It works pretty well. And blocking and movement are pretty important in the vast majority of Oriental Martial Arts as well, far more so than they are in traditional European boxing or wrestling.

Any good European melee weapon fighting styles which you can recommend to back that up?

Have you ever boxed? Not trying to insult you, merely asking whether or not you actually have any experience doing it. Non-boxers tend to underestimate the style, reducing it to "two guys in a ring just whacking each other". And Boxing is far more defensive than Shaolin martial arts, which use overly dramatic movements which provide little benefit and often necessitate taking their eyes off of the target.
 
Since nobody mentioned it, I ask the question: I heard that chinese martial arts devolped by monks had the purpose to counter the bad side effects of to long meditation. Anyone heard of that? It would explain the more art than martial part.
 

SunDeep

Banned
Have you ever boxed? Not trying to insult you, merely asking whether or not you actually have any experience doing it. Non-boxers tend to underestimate the style, reducing it to "two guys in a ring just whacking each other". And Boxing is far more defensive than Shaolin martial arts, which use overly dramatic movements which provide little benefit and often necessitate taking their eyes off of the target.

Traditional boxing, not contemporary boxing. Big difference. And I'm also talking about traditional Martial Arts such as actual Shaolin, rather than the overly showy, Hong-Kong Phooey styles that take precedence in those displays that they perform in front of audiences nowadays.
 

Artaxerxes

Banned
The major aspect here though is the fact that martial arts culture kept going, despite urbanisation, technological advances, increased civility and safety etc. Is it fair to say they experienced a revival of sorts?

Main reason eastern martial arts kept on is that by the time the societies modernised there were still people practising them, even if it was in a diluted form.

Increased leisure time, literacy and cultural pride then kept them going and younger generations interested in actually learning them.

In the west, only fencing limped on, evolving to its present form, along with boxing and to a smaller extent wrestling.
 
Traditional boxing, not contemporary boxing. Big difference. And I'm also talking about traditional Martial Arts such as actual Shaolin, rather than the overly showy, Hong-Kong Phooey styles that take precedence in those displays that they perform in front of audiences nowadays.

Traditional boxing? As in the West African style?
 

SunDeep

Banned
Traditional boxing? As in the West African style?

As in Western boxing, back in the days immediately after the Marquess of Queensbury rules were introduced, when the emphasis changed from offence to defence due to the boxers using of their padded gloves as shields.
 
http://lacannevigny.wordpress.com/pierre-vigny/the-stick-fighting-method-of-pierre-vigny/

Towards the end of the nineteenth century a professor named Pierre Vigny became renowned for teaching a lethal form of la canne. It was reported that Vigny would test his skills by making nightly excursions into the roughest areas of Marseilles, Paris and Genoa to many a gambling den and drinking hole where he would scrap with any man who would step up to the line.

That sounds like the origin story for Kajukenbo, an intensely practical combination of moves from Karate, Judo/Judutsu, Kenpo and Boxing:

In the late 1940s, the Palamas Settlement was a violent area where fist-fights and stabbings were commonplace. Due to this environment a martial artist by the name of Tommy Tanaka introduced five martial artists from varying backgrounds with the goal of developing an art that would be practical and effective on the street, yet transcend individual style limitations. These founders sought to develop one style that would complement each of their individual styles and yet had to allow for effective fighting at all ranges and speeds. [...] In its conception, the founders followed a simple rule, if a technique worked consistently on the street (or against one another), then it stayed in the system, if it did not, it was discarded.

They would refine their techniques by going to the roughest bars and picking fights with the toughest brawlers there.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Since nobody mentioned it, I ask the question: I heard that chinese martial arts devolped by monks had the purpose to counter the bad side effects of to long meditation. Anyone heard of that? It would explain the more art than martial part.

Most Asian MAs have dubious at best histories. They are almost all lies, their origin stories that is
 
Most Asian MAs have dubious at best histories. They are almost all lies, their origin stories that is

That's an exageration. Much like the origin stories themselves :p

Many of the arts are far more recent than the idea of "ancient secrets of the inscrutable orient" assocated with the idea of martial arts. There are plenty of styles, such as Akido, Jeet Kune Do, a lot of the Karate and Tae Kwon Do schools with well attested and recent histories.

A lot of the older styles did, however, mythologise their origins (and push them back to make them seem older than they are) to give them greater "face".
 
It's worth mentioning that bartitsu is a modern-day (well, modern as in early 20th century) adaptation of traditional Eastern (aikido, ju-jitsu) and Western (savate, boxing, cane fighting) martial arts. In this respect, it may be considered the first fusion (or 'mixed') martial art.
 

Sior

Banned
That sounds like the origin story for Kajukenbo, an intensely practical combination of moves from Karate, Judo/Judutsu, Kenpo and Boxing:



They would refine their techniques by going to the roughest bars and picking fights with the toughest brawlers there.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/fairbairn.html

William Ewart Fairbairn is one of the most badass martial arts masters the world has ever seen. In addition to developing the basis for the martials arts systems used by cops and special forces across the globe, he also invented the SWAT Team, came up with the idea of riot police, invented the police officer's tactical bullet-proof vest, and created the knife that was used by the SAS, Army Rangers, and Marine Raiders in World War II. He also survived over 600 non-training street fights in his lifetime as a police officer and was allegedly covered from face to ankle in scars from knife wounds he received in life-or-death battles with dirtbag criminal scumbags on the streets of Shanghai.
 
There does seem to be a bit of stereotyping in this thread.

In my understanding, many unarmed Asian martial arts were more of a form of pseudomilitary calisthenics than anything (and depending on how spiritual you want to get, calisthenics for the soul).

Though they seemed to get a second lease on life once urbanization came around.
 
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elkarlo

Banned
That's an exageration. Much like the origin stories themselves :p

Many of the arts are far more recent than the idea of "ancient secrets of the inscrutable orient" assocated with the idea of martial arts. There are plenty of styles, such as Akido, Jeet Kune Do, a lot of the Karate and Tae Kwon Do schools with well attested and recent histories.

A lot of the older styles did, however, mythologise their origins (and push them back to make them seem older than they are) to give them greater "face".


Right, it is a bit much. But even in their truths, they add lies. For instance Karate was about unarmed Okinawans fighting armed samurai.

The monks thing is also wrong. Monasteries were often politically aligned and were sometimes paramilitary groups. So it paid to have trained followers/members. The selfless, fighting bandits deal is BS imho
 

elkarlo

Banned
Personally, as someone that has some experience in both Western martial arts and Judo, I think that rigorous kata-esque move sets are actually a liability. It's the martial arts equivalent of rote-learning. Without any dynamism, a 'oriental-style' martial artist can be easily defeated by a proficient 'Western-style' martial artist. Aesthetic form takes too much of a place in 'oriental' martial arts. Muay Thai and the other 'Muay' styles is obviously an exception, being more 'Western' in style. On the occasions I've sparred with friends that have been training in Karate and Wing Chun (my friend that does karate has been doing it for about 10 years), I've always won. Wing Chun I found more difficult to crack, despite that friend being significantly smaller than me, and whilst some karate strikes definitely hurt when they catch you, I overall found it to be an underwhelming martial arts style (now I sound like the snob! :p)

I did wrestling Kung Fu, Tian Shan Pi, and Karate, SHorin ryu and Uechi ryu before becoming active in BJJ and MMA for the past decade. Most Traditional Martial Artists, can not fight, not a lick. As any realism has been removed from their systems, which makes it impossible to become decent at something that you can't really practice.

The whole "techniques that are too deadly" deal, is really laughable. Save for eye gouging, and nut shots, nothing is going to kill another person, unless you have incredible hitting power.

Depending on the Karate style, they can do some dynamic moves such as Kyokushinkai. But for the most part, they are robotic and respond unnaturally. KF is just as bad, if not worse. Aikido is a border line cult, with some great wrist locks, but almost no meaningful way in which to apply them to a resisting person.

And, as is said later, punchig tiger style, or whatever with your fingers is silly. Hitting a humanbeing with your fingers sounds like an invitation for you fingers to be broken on their head, or forearms.

I did Uechi ryu, which was all about body hardening. I could maybe hit someone with my fingers, but that was at the cost of me seriously damaging my hands. Not worth the price, as a closed hand or an open palm is much more effective, and much less likely to break. Besides I like the idea of having dexterity.
 

SunDeep

Banned
I did wrestling Kung Fu, Tian Shan Pi, and Karate, SHorin ryu and Uechi ryu before becoming active in BJJ and MMA for the past decade. Most Traditional Martial Artists, can not fight, not a lick. As any realism has been removed from their systems, which makes it impossible to become decent at something that you can't really practice.

The whole "techniques that are too deadly" deal, is really laughable. Save for eye gouging, and nut shots, nothing is going to kill another person, unless you have incredible hitting power.

Depending on the Karate style, they can do some dynamic moves such as Kyokushinkai. But for the most part, they are robotic and respond unnaturally. KF is just as bad, if not worse. Aikido is a border line cult, with some great wrist locks, but almost no meaningful way in which to apply them to a resisting person.

Agreed. However...

And, as is said later, punchig tiger style, or whatever with your fingers is silly. Hitting a human being with your fingers sounds like an invitation for your fingers to be broken on their head, or forearms.

I did Uechi ryu, which was all about body hardening. I could maybe hit someone with my fingers, but that was at the cost of me seriously damaging my hands. Not worth the price, as a closed hand or an open palm is much more effective, and much less likely to break. Besides I like the idea of having dexterity.

And hitting a human being with your fists sounds like an invitation for your knuckles to get broken on their head or forearms. :p I should know- I've broken my knuckles in the past. And I like the idea of having dexterity too- tiger fists are viable for me because I'm double jointed enough to close my thumbs and actually support them, just the same as regular fists. Plus the tiger fist's got a slightly longer reach and a much smaller impact area, and as someone who's trained in the use of dual katars, it just makes my favored weapons style and bare-handed fighting style more interchangeable. And BTW, I'd still favor using my shoe-clad feet to launch kicks over punching with my tiger fists (or just regular fists, which I'd still use more often anyway, unless I'm up against a guy whose reach is significantly longer than mine) any day of the week- you can't beat that for a low risk, high safety melee attack.
 
Agreed. However...

And hitting a human being with your fists sounds like an invitation for your knuckles to get broken on their head or forearms. :p I should know- I've broken my knuckles in the past. And I like the idea of having dexterity too- tiger fists are viable for me because I'm double jointed enough to close my thumbs and actually support them, just the same as regular fists. Plus the tiger fist's got a slightly longer reach and a much smaller impact area, and as someone who's trained in the use of dual katars, it just makes my favored weapons style and bare-handed fighting style more interchangeable. And BTW, I'd still favor using my shoe-clad feet to launch kicks over punching with my tiger fists (or just regular fists, which I'd still use more often anyway, unless I'm up against a guy whose reach is significantly longer than mine) any day of the week- you can't beat that for a low risk, high safety melee attack.

Your knuckles are significantly less likely to get broken if you punch properly with a closed fist than your fingers if you use 'tiger fists'. I find that it's far more effective to fight with a half-closed fist, which can grab and allow for grappling, whilst still being able to be closed quickly to punch properly. And the favoured weapons style is a bit pointless when your preferred weapons style is dual katars. How often would you find katars on the street??? And in regards to kicks, I've never had a problem with kicks. In fact, my preferred combination is a quick punching combination at short range (given that most street fights start with two people getting in each others' faces) and following up on the stunned opponent with either a head kick or a side kick to the abdomen for a 'coup de grace'.
 
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