AHC or Map Challenge: Spanish colonial wank

Have the Spanish win outright in the Spanish-Portuguese War in 1776-1777 or The War of the Oranges. With the Oranges the colonies might end up getting split with France but this is assuming Britian doesn't get involved on Portugal's side so the best bet IMO would be the former.
 
Have Miguel da Paz live and inherit all the Iberian thrones. There, you get the Spanish presence in the West and the Portuguese in the East.
 
Have the Spanish win outright in the Spanish-Portuguese War in 1776-1777 or The War of the Oranges. With the Oranges the colonies might end up getting split with France but this is assuming Britian doesn't get involved on Portugal's side so the best bet IMO would be the former.

Yep, that is much possible compared to the other scenarios talked here.
 

Thande

Donor
OTL is already a Spanish colonial wank. Beyond that, perhaps if that abortive colony in OTL South Carolina in the 1500s had survived?
 
Spanish Armada is not defeated; meaning England is beaten and the Spanish colonize all of the American continents? Which means The US will still exist in a recognizable form (white majority country, decent standards of living, immigrants from mestizo-majority countries); just that will be spanish-speaking. Like Argentina.
 
Spanish Armada is not defeated; meaning England is beaten and the Spanish colonize all of the American continents? Which means The US will still exist in a recognizable form (white majority country, decent standards of living, immigrants from mestizo-majority countries); just that will be spanish-speaking. Like Argentina.

What of France and the Dutches?
 
The US will still exist in a recognizable form (white majority country, decent standards of living, immigrants from mestizo-majority countries); just that will be spanish-speaking. Like Argentina.

No it won't. It will be butterflied away, along with every single bit of history from there on. You've just created a highly unrecogniseable world. Hapsburg England likely implies a much less liberal, more church-orientated society everywhere where the Hapsburgs have trodden.
 
No it won't. It will be butterflied away, along with every single bit of history from there on. You've just created a highly unrecogniseable world. Hapsburg England likely implies a much less liberal, more church-orientated society everywhere where the Hapsburgs have trodden.

Living in colonial lands will force people to develop new modes of thought (i.e. more 'liberal' ideas develop in the colonies anyway). You saw that in Imperial Russia with Siberian settlers who were new/forward-thinking and arguably the same with Crimeans. The Spanish will probably fuck up their development of colonial industry or whatnot, the colonists see how britain is developing and they become independent and if the spanish restrict that it resultes in tensions which can lead to revolution. The Spanish more directly governed their colonies (compared to Britain's 'benign neglect' until they had to centralize and tax the empire better), and that may exacerbate the tensions

Besides, even if England is rejoined to Catholicism the same issues which prompted Martin Luther's reformation will happen.

What of France and the Dutches?

I am not sure. Perhaps Spain annexes them somehow, or France sells its colonies to Spain after losing Haiti as OTL, and Spain having a similar culture governs the french colonies pretty nicely.
 
Living in colonial lands will force people to develop new modes of thought (i.e. more 'liberal' ideas develop in the colonies anyway). You saw that in Imperial Russia with Siberian settlers who were new/forward-thinking and arguably the same with Crimeans. The Spanish will probably fuck up their development of colonial industry or whatnot, the colonists see how britain is developing and they become independent and if the spanish restrict that it resultes in tensions which can lead to revolution. The Spanish more directly governed their colonies, and that may exacerbate the ensions

Besides, even if England is rejoined to Catholicism the same issues which prompted Martin Luther's reformation will happen.



I am not sure. Perhaps Spain annexes them somehow, or France sells its colonies to Spain after losing Haiti as OTL, and Spain having a similar culture governs the french colonies pretty nicely.

well, france and spain are sure related, but the colonials regimes and cultures have quite major differences at some aspects...

i could see the royals coming to New france if exile is needed and the colony remained free.. IF.
 
Living in colonial lands will force people to develop new modes of thought (i.e. more 'liberal' ideas develop in the colonies anyway). You saw that in Imperial Russia with Siberian settlers who were new/forward-thinking and arguably the same with Crimeans. The Spanish will probably fuck up their development of colonial industry or whatnot, the colonists see how britain is developing and they become independent and if the spanish restrict that it resultes in tensions which can lead to revolution. The Spanish more directly governed their colonies (compared to Britain's 'benign neglect' until they had to centralize and tax the empire better), and that may exacerbate the tensions.

They will not. People who move from their homeland to another place will generally be very conservative. They will stick to the values they had at the time they left, their values and culture will not change, probably because there is more 'danger' of loosing their culture. In the homeland this will not be the case, and there people's culture will change, because people do not see that as a threat. So therefore the Hapsburg culture will in the homeland slowly start to be more liberal, but this will not happen in the colonies.
People in colonies start to be different from the people in the homeland, and, also for geographical reasons, they will start to strive for independence. But they will not be more liberal than people from the homeland, they will be even less liberal.
 
They will not. People who move from their homeland to another place will generally be very conservative. They will stick to the values they had at the time they left, their values and culture will not change, probably because there is more 'danger' of loosing their culture. In the homeland this will not be the case, and there people's culture will change, because people do not see that as a threat. So therefore the Hapsburg culture will in the homeland slowly start to be more liberal, but this will not happen in the colonies.
People in colonies start to be different from the people in the homeland, and, also for geographical reasons, they will start to strive for independence. But they will not be more liberal than people from the homeland, they will be even less liberal.

I'm not sure. The people that went to what's now Paraguay, Eastern Argentina and Uruguay were, in a way, more liberal than the average mainland Spanish peasant. In Paraguay they even chose their own authorities, established alliances with the Indians, and were, in all but name, polygamous. There ware several revelions, all of them made "in the name of the king" but against the designated authorities. In these area there was never and inquisition tribunal, and the cases of heretics taken to Lima are so few compared to other areas thaat ones tend to think that, for example, crypto-Jews from Portuguese Brazil were almostly unmolested in these area (Something that didn't happened in Cordoba, Salta, or other parts of what's now the Argentinean Northwest).

However, it's true that it's unlikely that these people, living in a marginal area, would be able to develop a doctrine that justifies their actions and wishes. IOTL, they were only able to do so by the end of the XVIII century and the fisrt decade of the XIX. But they didn't developped a new liberal doctrine themselves, they just took, from the ideas available worldwide, the ones that suited better their needs. That's why they took a lot from the jesuits, and also a lot from the French philosophers life Montesquieu or Rousseau. I don't know what would have happened if those ideas weren't available. Would they develop their own, or would the push on with revelions that would go nowhere, due to the lack of a doctrine that justifies them and tells you how to organize a government once the authoritarian old order is overthrown?

I tihink that more or less the same would happen in a Spanish *US, given the similarities: the lack of resources would make these areas unattractive, and the lack of an exploitable workforce wouldn't allow the social structure that developped in Perú or Mexico to arrise (a structure in were a small group of whites lived on the work of a large force of Indian). The area would be very poor, at least at first, due to the social taboos against manual work that caracterized the culture of the first Spanish colonizers (most of them hidalgos, that is, people from the low nobility how might loose their status if they were seen doing manual work). But these would change gradually in the XVIII century, as it did in the River Plate Bassin. Trade, cow herding and then agriculture would slowly flowrish, and immigrants would eventually come...
 
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Have the Spanish win outright in the Spanish-Portuguese War in 1776-1777 or The War of the Oranges. With the Oranges the colonies might end up getting split with France but this is assuming Britian doesn't get involved on Portugal's side so the best bet IMO would be the former.

They won the War of the Oranges IOTL in Europe and even then they lost the Misiones Orientales to the Portuguese. I really doubt they would have any chance of conquering Brazil even if they had annexed Portugal (which would be hard too). Also, they would have no chance of conquering Brazil with the British Navy in their way.
 
Spanish Armada is not defeated; meaning England is beaten and the Spanish colonize all of the American continents? Which means The US will still exist in a recognizable form (white majority country, decent standards of living, immigrants from mestizo-majority countries); just that will be spanish-speaking. Like Argentina.

This does not change anything. In fact the Armada episode was part of a war that ended in 1604 with a treaty in which England acknowledged all Spanish claims... Eventually someone would avoid Spanish control in the Americas
 
This does not change anything. In fact the Armada episode was part of a war that ended in 1604 with a treaty in which England acknowledged all Spanish claims... Eventually someone would avoid Spanish control in the Americas

Yeah, it's amusing to see how an event that didn't do much in the war it was a part of gets mythologized a lot.
 
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