AHC: Optimize US WWII Small Arms

The challenge: optimize US WWII small arms.

But it wouldn't be any fun without some limits, would it?

Earliest PoD: 1930.

No more than two completely new weapons (OTL: M1 Garand, M1 Carbine)

Any number of minor modifications to existing weapons (no change in caliber, feed, or action) (OTL: M1 Thompson, M1919 shoulder stock/bipod, etc.).

No more than one new ammunition caliber (OTL: .30 Carbine).

Bear in mind your optimization must apply to the US Army combat forces, service forces, and the USMC.

Bear in mind the US had huge stocks of .30-06 ammunition, and until 1940 has a very limited budget.

Existing weapons are the M1903 rifle, M1911 pistol, M1928 submachinegun, M1919 MMG, M1918 Automatic Rifle, M1917 HMG, and if you really want it M1917 rifle. Existing cartridges are the .45ACP and .30-06.

Your optimization program should be able to be fully implemented by the end of 1944.

Heavy weapons such as the M2 BMG are beyond the scope of this exercise.

Please be as detailed as possible about squad, platoon, company, and battalion small arms.

Present... ARMS! ;-)
 
Assuming I can just delete the M1A1 carbine, then .276 Pedersen as the new cartridge for the Garand. If I can't delete the carbine then just chamber it for .45 ACP and issue it much smaller numbers than it was historically. Maybe it's just a survival rifle issued to air crew, or an MPs weapon.

I fail to see why you need a .30 carbine when you can just issue a 'tanker Garand' to troops who don't need to carry the fullsized autoloading rifle.

Bear in mind the US had huge stocks of .30-06 ammunition

I've always thought this was a fairly thin excuse. I bet the Coast Guard alone could have chewed up all that ammo before war's end.
 
I'd introduce an intermediate cartridge, either based on a shortened 30-06 or ideally shortened .276 Pedersen. Chamber it in a select fire Garand with a 20 round magazine. This would replace the OTL Garand, carbine, Thompson and Grease guns. It would look similar to the Beretta BM59.

REMFs, Airborne, mountain troops can use a short barreled, folding stock version of the same weapon.

The second weapon would be a light machine gun like the Bren sharing the intermediate cartridge. Quick change barrel, 30 round top magazine interchageable with the 20 round magazine of the select fire rifle. This will replace the BAR and company level M1919A4. M1919 will be retained for tank use and M1917 will be retained for battallion use.
 
Squad Automatic Weapon

The U.S. trying to increase its effectiveness while keeping its costs down experiment with different combinations of squads using different weapons and comes up with a small squad centred around a Squad Automatic weapon that was Man Portable, a stripped down Lewis Gun, with support provided for it by two squad mates using a simplified Thompson design. This allowed a three person squad to be as effective as a twelve person squad in many uses, with a resulting increase in efficiency and cost reduction.
 
OK, let's try giving this a kick: which of these two setups do you think is better (bang for buck):

1. The US adopts the M1 Garand in .276, per the boards OTL recommendation. It recognizes the need for an automatic weapon in the same caliber for squad use, and after much trial and error a new LMG (no good OTL equivalent that I'm aware of) is introduced. After the fall of France a shortened version of the Garand is introduced (using the same en bloc clip) as the M1 Carbine.

A squad has one LMG served by a gunner and loader (both with M1911's as sidearms), a squad leader with a M1 Thompson, an assistant squad leader and two privates each with a Garand fitted to fire rifle grenades, and six privates with Garands. The six riflemen carry extra ammo for the LMG and the grenadiers. A platoon has three squads plus a six-man command element: Platoon Leader with a Carbine, Platoon Sergeant with a Garand and grenade launcher, Platoon Guide with a Thompson, two messengers with Garands (one carrying an SCR-536 radio), and one sharpshooter with an M1903 with scope. Total of 42 men in a platoon (one more than OTL).

A rifle company is essentially as OTL: three rifle platoons, plus a weapons platoon with a pair of tripod-mounted M1919 MMGs and three 60mm mortars. The battalion weapons company is as OTL (eight M1917 HMGs, plus six 81mm mortars).

2. The US adopts the M1 Garand in .30-06, as OTL, and the M1 Carbine comes around after the fall of France. So, the exact same weapons are available as OTL.

A squad has a leader with a Thompson, an assistant leader and two privates with Garands and grenade launchers, two BAR gunners with M1918 BARs, two assistant gunners and four privates with Garands. The AGs and privates carry ammo for the BARs and grenadiers. The platoon has three squads plus the same HQ as above (PL-C, PS-R/GL, PG-S, Msgr-R/SCR-536, Msgr-R, Marksman-M1903A4) plus two three-man MMG teams serving M1919s with shoulder stocks and bipods. The MMG teams have pistols as sidearms. Total of 48 men in the platoon.

The rifle company is as above (same as OTL again), as is the battalion weapons company.

Thoughts?
 
Can the BAR be modified to operate in the belt fed OR clip fed (LARGER CLIPS) role... (a la the m249)? it would make the weapon a lot more dynamic and eliminate the need for lugging around the heavy ass .30 cal machine guns... you can then put 2 bars in every squad; make the barrels interchangable (the belgians had a version of the BAR with quick change barrels) and then have everyone else lug around ammo, spot targets, act as spare gunners etc... basically adopt the german (later american) fire team squad organization
 
Can the BAR be modified to operate in the belt fed OR clip fed (LARGER CLIPS) role... (a la the m249)? it would make the weapon a lot more dynamic and eliminate the need for lugging around the heavy ass .30 cal machine guns... you can then put 2 bars in every squad; make the barrels interchangable (the belgians had a version of the BAR with quick change barrels) and then have everyone else lug around ammo, spot targets, act as spare gunners etc... basically adopt the german (later american) fire team squad organization

There were modifications to the BAR made to turn it into a belt-fed weapon (in another caliber, can't remember which) with a QC barrel, but it wasn't done by the US, and IIRC wasn't done until after WWII.

A larger mag probably isn't practical; 20 .30-06 cartridges are big and heavy enough as it is - any bigger and the weapon will be resting on its mag, not the bipod. There's a reason the Bren loaded from the top, and just about every other MG from the side. :-}
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Hmmm...

Two NEW weapons:

M-14 replaces the M-1. Same 30-06 cartridge, but a select fire detachable magazine (the sound you here is 10 million thumbs giving thanks :D). Include a folding stock for Para, tankers, gun crews and the like, basically a select fire Beretta BM59. Include a bipod and the BAR is obsolete (of course that is a moot point because...)

Browning .30 cal & BAR replaced by MG 42 (or the M-60, which is pretty much the same thing) in 30-06.

Modifications to current weapons:


Rifle stock for the M1911, along with a 6-10" barrel extension and extended capacity magazine. This set up allows you to literally drop in the long barrel .45, turn a couple screws and viola a carbine replacement that will still knock down anything it hits. Want it to be really neat, add a forward grip. (Hell, I want one of these TODAY!)

Since the Marines WILL still get screwed and will probably not see the M-60 until 1945, the M-1919 with shoulder stock & bipod will be nice.

BTW: The U.S. standard issue included .38 Special (most Navy & USMC pilots carried a 4" S&W Victory revolver), .32 APC & .380 Auto (General officers were issued a Colt 1903 in a choice of .32 or Colt 1908 in .380/9mm Browning), .22 Hornet (used in the M4 survival rifle), and 12 gauge shotgun
 

NothingNow

Banned
Don't adopt a new cartridge just yet.
Alright, the new Gun:
Replace the M1903 with a slightly modified (Detachable 20 round magazine, and select fire functionality) version of the Garand (The *M1) in .30-06.

V2 of the M1 is a Carbine/Paratrooper version of the standard model, with an 18" Barrel, recoil compensator and a side folding stock. Pretty much all parts between the various models, excluding the furniture should be interchangeable, so it's still different marks of the same gun.

Weapon Two is a Version of the M1 to replace the M1918, M1919 and partially the M1917, fitted out with a Quick change barrel, and belt-fed. Ideally sharing as many parts as possible with the M1 family.

Other than that, go for a cheaper version of the M1928 for production, and don't touch the M1911.

For production, just work them in switching over, model by model to the new equipment finishing in 1938 or so. As the war begins, and production ramps up, the new stuff is all that's being produced.

As for the Obsolete weapons, It's to be given to other rear line units, given to the Coast Guard, Sold internationally, sold commercially, or just "lost" In caches around the Philippine Islands.

Any M1918s not sold should be modified to make them compatible with the 20rd Magazines for the M1 family; any remaining M1917s should just be placed on a cheap and light trailer, classified as a heavy weapon, and dolled out as needed, for dealing with pockets of heavy resistance, and the like.
(Incidentally, it might be worth looking into mounting M2s or faster firing M1917s on Motorcycle sidecars. Both as a terror weapon, and fire support for Airborne troops.)

Effective total conversion, (barring the occasional M1903 for a sniper, or cut down for use with rifle grenades, and a few converted M1918s here and there in non combat or support units) should be some time in August 1944.
 
The challenge: optimize US WWII small arms.

But it wouldn't be any fun without some limits, would it?

Earliest PoD: 1930.

No more than two completely new weapons (OTL: M1 Garand, M1 Carbine)

Any number of minor modifications to existing weapons (no change in caliber, feed, or action) (OTL: M1 Thompson, M1919 shoulder stock/bipod, etc.).

No more than one new ammunition caliber (OTL: .30 Carbine).

Bear in mind your optimization must apply to the US Army combat forces, service forces, and the USMC.

Bear in mind the US had huge stocks of .30-06 ammunition, and until 1940 has a very limited budget.

Existing weapons are the M1903 rifle, M1911 pistol, M1928 submachinegun, M1919 MMG, M1918 Automatic Rifle, M1917 HMG, and if you really want it M1917 rifle. Existing cartridges are the .45ACP and .30-06.

Your optimization program should be able to be fully implemented by the end of 1944.

Heavy weapons such as the M2 BMG are beyond the scope of this exercise.

Please be as detailed as possible about squad, platoon, company, and battalion small arms.

Present... ARMS! ;-)

First new weapon, a detachable box magazine fed, semi auto only Garand in .276 pedersen. In addition to the standard service rifle variant, one variant would have a heavy barrel, and bipod and fire fully automatically from the open bolt, another variant would have a shorter barrel with a removable flash suppressor and a folding stock.

Second new weapon a belt fed FN MAG clone in .276 pedersen (IIRC the FN MAG was loosely based on the BAR action so this should be achievable.)

The M1928 SMG would be simplified to the extent possible.

The M1917 is kept in service as a MMG.

The squad is made up of two four man fire teams with 3 rifle men with service rifles and hand grenades (and maybe a few rifle grenades) and an auto rifle man with full auto rifle and a third fire team with the squad leader (armed with a service rifle) a machine gunner with a belt fed MG and an assistant gunner armed with a service rifle, one extra barrel would be issued for the MG at squad level but not a tripod.

The Platoon has three squads plus a weapons squad / HQ element with a 60mm commando style mortar, another belt fed MG with a tripod and extra barrels and later a bazooka and radio man along with the platoon leader and platoon sgt and medic.

The M1917 is issued at company level along with 60mm mortars with bi pods and base plates.

Other than perhaps a few sniper rifles and maybe a few SMG's held for special tasks I don't see any small arms changes at batallion level.

The M1919 is not issued to infantry.

SMG's would be sparsely issued along with M1903 sniper rifles to specialist troops who needed them. 1911's are issued to officers and others with a bona fide need for a handgun.

Short barreled service rifles would be issued in lieu of the M1 carbine.
 
VZ30

Replace the BAR and the M1919 MG with a license buil Vz 30 in .30-06 caliber.
Redesign the .30 M1 Carbine for .357Magnun caliber.
Keep the Garand and the 1911
 
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