AHC: Novgorodian Nationalism

Your challenges is to, with any POD you wish, have 'Novgorodian' people be seen as seperate from the rest of Russians, much like Belarusians and the Ukrainians.

Bonus points if it has a secessionist movement and a point multiplier if it actually manages to secede/become independent by "modern day."
 
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I've had some people in my TL tell me that if Russia hadn't been united, Novgorod and Moscow (or the regions around them, at least) would eventually form separate languages like Belarusians and Ukrainians IOTL.

So we can work on that
 
I've had some people in my TL tell me that if Russia hadn't been united, Novgorod and Moscow (or the regions around them, at least) would eventually form separate languages like Belarusians and Ukrainians IOTL.

So we can work on that

Delaying Russian unification long enough for the Novgorodians to form a seperate language does seem like the obvious choice, doesn't it? But how exactly you'd do that is a much harder question.
 
The language would have to be the modern descendent of this language which I believe would keep the local Novgorodian dialect much more distinct than OTL.

Delaying Russian unification long enough for the Novgorodians to form a seperate language does seem like the obvious choice, doesn't it? But how exactly you'd do that is a much harder question.

Never have Russian unification at all? Although that begs the question as to what becomes of the East Slavic languages as a whole, since the ancestors of modern German and Italian generally dominated all the regional languages in those areas, and it doesn't seem hard to have a standard East Slavic language in all the courts of the divided principalities of Russia (could even be the Old Ruthenian language of Lithuania). But perhaps in that case, Novgorod might end up like Bavaria or the separatist parts of Sicily, even if the Novgorodian language itself is marginalised. If Novgorod's republican traditions evolve, yet it is still merged into a Russian state, that could be interesting, although in Italy I believe Venice has been much more active nationalistically than Genoa.
 
Perhaps their special sort of republicanism helps give themselves their own identity? Apparently archbishops often ran the show, but they could be elected. If you can get church, state, the boyars, city goers, and peasents in a web of alliances with each other and perhaps get things with the Hansa going sooner... I wonder if the Danes or Swedes will have closer ties with them. And by closer, I mean not not attempting to overthrow or whatever. If the Danes and Swedes both see them as a massive source of resources and trade they might fight each other for acess to it around the straits, but they would have done that anyways. Perhaps we should look at some of the Italian city states as examples, though those were rather smaller.
 
Preventing Muscovy's rise is not too difficult. Through internal strife and Lithuanian interference, keep the principalities of the Golden Ring small and squabbling throughout the late 14th and 15th century. Without Muscovite hegemony, Novgorod retains control over Vologda and Cherdyn and remains strong. If it enters the 16th century sovereign, wealthy and strong, some archbishop may step up higher education efforts, maybe beginning even earlier with the influx of a few Greeks who don't go to Moscow, and voilà the Republic has its own national culture. Due to numbers, it won't ever dominate all the Rus, so when some alt-Muscovy consolidates and expands later, late 16th century maybe, we end up with different polities.
I'd love to read that TL!
 
Perhaps their special sort of republicanism helps give themselves their own identity? Apparently archbishops often ran the show, but they could be elected. If you can get church, state, the boyars, city goers, and peasents in a web of alliances with each other and perhaps get things with the Hansa going sooner... I wonder if the Danes or Swedes will have closer ties with them. And by closer, I mean not not attempting to overthrow or whatever. If the Danes and Swedes both see them as a massive source of resources and trade they might fight each other for acess to it around the straits, but they would have done that anyways. Perhaps we should look at some of the Italian city states as examples, though those were rather smaller.
The archbishops WERE elected.
Hansa involvement was as early as it gets. Relations with swedes very warlike, and stronger Hansa ties would only exacerbate that.
 
The archbishops WERE elected.
Hansa involvement was as early as it gets. Relations with swedes very warlike, and stronger Hansa ties would only exacerbate that.
Indeed. I meant that for the archbishops but worded it poorly as I was unsure if all archbishops were elected. I think this would actually have long term effects upon Protestants when they come around.
 
Indeed. I meant that for the archbishops but worded it poorly as I was unsure if all archbishops were elected. I think this would actually have long term effects upon Protestants when they come around.

Assuming it comes about with a POD that early. But the Reformation isn't really what this thread is about, is it?
 
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