AHC: Non-white Europe

Albert.Nik

Banned
This looks like ASB. Also it could,with a high possibility, involve many mass death scenarios. Better if the moderators lock this thread quickly. (@CalBear )
Ethnic compositions of Europe differently possible can be discussed in the other thread I've started. Non White Europe is impossible except in ASB,BTW due to population dynamics and logistics.
 
Turks and bosnians show that definitions of "white" equals non-muslim, so somehow have an ottoman conquest and successful conversions of a majority of europe to fit this.
 
Same here, but I'm laughing at people only calling this out when it's applied against white people and not the other dozen times people have asked for a white Mesoamerica/Andes/Africa/India/China/Middle East.

For me? This is the third thread of this sort that I have read but first time I post in one.
Turks and bosnians show that definitions of "white" equals non-muslim, so somehow have an ottoman conquest and successful conversions of a majority of europe to fit this.

Especially when you consider that "non-Catholic" also factored into the equation. Not sure how the French escaped that issue though, them being Catholic and all. I made my comment earlier about Arabs being white because what would eventually happen is that whatever is left over of the "white" populations will mix and still look relatively "white" at the end. Any invasion would have to come from beyond Europe's neighbors which require them to have the POD. Maybe horses in the new world allowing for the development of things like the wheel via contact with Asia (somehow) allows some civilizations to develop to be strong enough to invade Europe?

But if we are talking about what OTL modern day Western European notions of "whiteness", then it's actually very easy to make it happen.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Same here, but I'm laughing at people only calling this out when it's applied against white people and not the other dozen times people have asked for a white Mesoamerica/Andes/Africa/India/China/Middle East.
White people did really exist in large numbers in China,India,Middle East,North Africa and Central Asia before the Turkic/Mongol expansion. The only problem I see in this thread is Non White Europe requires too much violence.
 
This looks like ASB. Also it could,with a high possibility, involve many mass death scenarios. Better if the moderators lock this thread quickly. (@CalBear )

If you ban discussion on non-white Europe then you have to ban discussions on diseases and wars that wiped out 90% of Americas. And all threads on the topic of white China/India/Congo.
 
Why? Americas turned from being dominated by Americans to people of European/partially-European descent. This is just a question on how Europeans could be changed.



Well, by any counting means, majority of people living in Europe has a light skin (less or more white if we take Southern and Northern Europe).
This is significantly (really really) implausible but certainly not ASB.

Say the Mongols never existed, leaving important cities such as Baghdad not looted of it’s treasures and spice trade routes never created, causing Europe to never seek to find new trade routes to the west. Then an Industrial Revolution sprouts in Arabia or Egypt in the 1600s, Rum or a surviving Ayyubids could then take Europe with ease, and eventually the excess population of the Islamic World birthed from the lowering fatality rates at birth and higher fertility rates, migrates into Europe and eventually displaces the native population.
 
Turks and bosnians show that definitions of "white" equals non-muslim, so somehow have an ottoman conquest and successful conversions of a majority of europe to fit this.
People don't consider Bosnians white? I was under the impression They are largely seen as Muslim Serbs.
 
If you ban discussion on non-white Europe then you have to ban discussions on diseases and wars that wiped out 90% of Americas. And all threads on the topic of white China/India/Congo.
In recent history I don't recall any "white India/China" threads.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
In recent history I don't recall any "white India/China" threads.
I have done some White China discussion. But mostly limited to Western China. India. Yes one discussion does exist for a White India too.
Those are in timelines where Tocharians and Indo-Aryans flourish more.
 
If you ban discussion on non-white Europe then you have to ban discussions on diseases and wars that wiped out 90% of Americas. And all threads on the topic of white China/India/Congo.

Now that I think of it...an outbreak or series of outbreaks happening with greater impetus in Europe would allow groups being pushed away from the mongols to just move into Europe. Spread the disease out far enough in the 11th and 12th centuries and you depopulate enough people so that when the Mongols come you do end up getting a population replacement. But keep in mind that Indigenous populations in the Americas bounced back. There are tens of millions of them and even the plurality of several countries and lead to the rise of a very diverse group of "mixed raced" peoples. There wasn't a total replacement outside of two countries out of thirty.

So if that's our model, then this Europ thing is indeed more possible than total replacement.
 
Now that I think of it...an outbreak or series of outbreaks happening with greater impetus in Europe would allow groups being pushed away from the mongols to just move into Europe. Spread the disease out far enough in the 11th and 12th centuries and you depopulate enough people so that when the Mongols come you do end up getting a population replacement. But keep in mind that Indigenous populations in the Americas bounced back. There are tens of millions of them and even the plurality of several countries and lead to the rise of a very diverse group of "mixed raced" peoples. There wasn't a total replacement outside of two countries out of thirty.

So if that's our model, then this Europ thing is indeed more possible than total replacement.
Then, if Europe is entirely depopulated, is it worth conquering? Might as well stay in Ukraine if all you want is fertile land, or as West as Bohemia if you want silver
 
Then, if Europe is entirely depopulated, is it worth conquering? Might as well stay in Ukraine if all you want is fertile land, or as West as Bohemia if you want silver
Not total depopulation. I mean more of what happened in the Americas.
 
Not total depopulation. I mean more of what happened in the Americas.
Even that level, and it's a serious question. The Americas had gold/silver/tobacco/indigo/sugar, which couldn't be grown in Europe.
But there's nothing in Europe that couldn't be grown elsewhere, right?
I know there's tin in Britain and minerals here and there, but is it big enough to get the land? Is there enough population pressure to get in?
 
Even that level, and it's a serious question. The Americas had gold/silver/tobacco/indigo/sugar, which couldn't be grown in Europe.
But there's nothing in Europe that couldn't be grown elsewhere, right?
I know there's tin in Britain and minerals here and there, but is it big enough to get the land? Is there enough population pressure to get in?
The Ottomans and Moors were interested enough to invade. If France and Byzantium don't put up a strong enough fight, can you see them not doing it?
 
The Ottomans and Moors were interested enough to invade. If France and Byzantium don't put up a strong enough fight, can you see them not doing it?
There might be some expansion, but I'm not sure it'd go to the same level. I would think a lot of European wealth came from commerce and industry rather than resource extraction.
Then again, same could have been said for the Americas so you might be right
 
Eastern Mediterranean people is genetically related to Eastern Mediterranean people.

The fact that someone actually needs to discover that makes me realize that our cultural notions about race are not that far from 19th-century anthropology.
I wouldn't be so quick to jump at any research, I swear I have seen so many conflicting results over just about anything.
 
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