AHC: non democratic Israel

samcster94

Banned
Israel is widely considered democratic in its legal boundaries and has had legal elections since 1948. What would it take to create a non-democratic Israel of any kind? Said Israel can be Communist,a Military dictatorship, a Jewish theocracy, explicit pseudo-apartheid{ OTL Israel doesn't count, and what I am implying is far worse} or run by any other authoritarian government. The nation has to be called Israel and an Arab majority single state Palestine with an Anti-Semitic dictator doesn't count. Bonus points if it is after 1967. For the purposes of this thread, the current situation is not apartheid in its legal borders(Gaza and the West Bank is another story). Also, how would the U.S.(or any Westerm country) defend this Israel?
 
a Jewish theocracy
I would read a scenario based on this premise.

I would as well, out of curiosity. Thing is, if today's Haredim with their anti-scientific attitude are any indication, I doubt the country would be able to do much on its own.
In my opinion, the model is more like Saudi Arabia than Iran and would have to rely on western support far more than today.
It could be they manage to attain statehood and then for some reason they turn uber-religious. A massive immigration of survived Ostjuden after the fact might do the trick, but it's still unclear to me how they would keep the peace with their neighbours.

Said Israel can be Communist

If Bundist cadres survive the war and come to depend on Soviet largesse for weapons, I don't see why not. Perhaps the Americans don't trust them and the French get bogged down in some colonial war of theirs more than OTL.

a Military dictatorship

Some public safety measure that doesn't get revoked? Say, a protracted semi-war.

explicit pseudo-apartheid{ OTL Israel doesn't count, and what I am implying is far worse}

Less favourable demographics than OTL?

Everything said, how many people are going to make Aliyah under such conditions?
 
You could have sharon overthrowing the goverment in 1983.

Another option is after the rabin asasination the ruling labor party decides to outlaw right wing partys (there were some more extreme voices in the left calling for it)
 

Pangur

Donor
Dude, i am an israeli and in a few years its all going to be arabs or haredim. thats why im leaving the country
Got to ask if the haredim as I understand it dont want to serve in the military how is that going to work? Equally I was underthe impression that Russian immigrants had a lot of power and they would not be haredim.
 
Is there any chance of a Marxist-Leninist Soviet Israel occurring? The idea of Stalinist Jews is fascinating and horrifying to me.
 
I would read a scenario based on this premise.

Maybe Israel has their own Zia ul-Haq, and the name changes to "Jewish Republic of Israel". Question is, who?

Is there any chance of a Marxist-Leninist Soviet Israel occurring? The idea of Stalinist Jews is fascinating and horrifying to me.

I don't think so but I can imagine if Israel aligns with the Soviets such parties can become more popular (the Israeli right was marginalized IOTL until the 1970s).
 
Another option is after the rabin asasination the ruling labor party decides to outlaw right wing partys (there were some more extreme voices in the left calling for it)

Isn't that a recipe for a civil war? Any chance the settlers would start a revolt?
Although I don't know about their numbers and leaning at the time...
 

samcster94

Banned
Maybe Israel has their own Zia ul-Haq, and the name changes to "Jewish Republic of Israel". Question is, who?



I don't think so but I can imagine if Israel aligns with the Soviets such parties can become more popular (the Israeli right was marginalized IOTL until the 1970s).
A more moderate Communist regime is more likely.
 
Is there any chance of a Marxist-Leninist Soviet Israel occurring? The idea of Stalinist Jews is fascinating and horrifying to me.

In the first Knesset election, the Israeli Communist party (Maki) got only 3.5% of the vote, and didn't do much better in subsequent elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maki_(historical_political_party) However, the much larger Mapam Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapam was also pro-Soviet until it was shaken by the 1953 Prague Trials. Still, even in 1949, when the USSR was not yet as violently anti-Israel as it would be a few years later, Mapam and Maki combined only got about 18 percent of the vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_1949 So it is hard for me to see a Marxist-Leninist Israel coming about.
 
Got to ask if the haredim as I understand it dont want to serve in the military how is that going to work? Equally I was underthe impression that Russian immigrants had a lot of power and they would not be haredim.

The haredim dont want to serve in the military and those who do get excomunicated.
plus they dont pay taxes and live off money from the goverment. So then what would happen when they take over its going to be aproblem
 
Is there any chance of a Marxist-Leninist Soviet Israel occurring? The idea of Stalinist Jews is fascinating and horrifying to me.

Well, "Stalinist Jews" certainly was not an unheard-of category...

QUESTION: What did you do on the kibbutz? Did you find the intellectual life stimulating? And why did you leave?

CHOMSKY: Remember that I was only there for about six weeks. I was completely unskilled, so I was doing only unskilled agricultural work, under the guidance of kibbutz members. I actually enjoyed the work very much, though for how long I would have, I don’t know. As for intellectual life, this kibbutz was Buberite in origin, mainly German Jews who were quite well-educated though one of the people I came to know best was a Christian immigrant who had left a large farm he owned in Rhodesia out of hatred for the racist society there, and who was really a first-class agronomist with many interesting ideas. There were very interesting people there, but it was surreal in some ways. This was 1953, at the time of the Slansky trials in Czechoslovakia and the last stages of Stalinist lunacy. These late Stalin purges had a strong anti-Semitic element, but people there actually defended them. They even defended the trial of a fellow kibbutz member who was an emissary of the kibbutz movement there and was charged with being a spy, which they knew to be false. Not all did, of course. Those who thought about these things — many did not — were orthodox Marxist-Leninists, and I could discern no visible departure from a fairly rigid party line, though there may well have been much that I never saw.

link
 
What if during the Yom kipper war, Golda is felled by a stroke? Moshe Dayan makes the choice to head up an apolitical government of national unity. After a few years, less scrupulous warlords push him aside and create a quazi theocracy.
 
How about this?

16th October 2006.

A suicide bomber blows himself up during a session of the Knesset, the parliament. 42 representatives are killed, including the Prime minister. The country is in turmoil as its bastion of security has been breached. An investigation quickly concludes that the person who blew himself up was a respected member of parliament. Paranoia roams the hallways of the Israeli branches as backgrounds are being rechecked, to no avail.
Then Mossad intercepts a communication inside the Lebanese government suggesting Lebanon was at least aware of the attack. The conversation also speaks of “others” that have infiltrated Israel.
A leak to the press sparks a massive wave of demonstrations raging trough the country but there is no sign of action from the Israeli government. Mossad investigates as much members of the government as they possibly can and one enquiry even ends in a vast firefight near the home of a Knesset assistant. For Israel and the world this is the confirmation that the Israeli government has been penetrated.

On the 19th October 2006, 0400 hours IDF tanks and troops occupy major crossroads and roads in and around Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and other major or strategic cities.
Exactly at 1200 hours the newly appointed Ramatkal (Chief of the General Staff) Gabi Ashkenazideclares a state of emergency and announces that the government is no longer capable of leading the country as it may or may not be infiltrated by terrorist or foreign agents.The military will take care of the well being of the Israeli citizens during the crisis and until trustworthy elections can be held.
Reactions throughout Israel are mixed. Many people have trust in the IDF since they are such a familiar organisation, linked to many facets of Israeli daily life. Others are concerned about the loss of the democratic process and some are even voicing the possibility of a coup.
The reaction in the occupied territories is one of total mayhem. Riots sweep trough the streets and the Palestinian government requests international protection since they are now bordered by an uncontrollable military rule.
The United States s reserved in its reaction and it states that in this current crisis there are little options. Of course it will keep an eye into the evolution of the situation.
The United Nations voices its gravest concerns and asks if elections can be held as soon as possible and is backed in this statement by the Arab world, the EU, Russia and China.

Riots and turmoil increase in the occupied Palestinian territories and the military moves in with little restraint to “pacify the situation”. The Palestinian government again asks for international protection.

On the 22nd October IDF troops position themselves near the Lebanese border and bombers carry out air raids on strategic Lebanese military installations, making no separation between Hezbollah and other targets.
Ashkenazi declares that this is a first step to force them Lebanese government to disclose all the agents within the state of Israel and force Lebanon to seize all covert operations. Lebanon points out that they question the proof of their involvement presented by the IDF but will try to help Israel. Preferably without their arm being twisted. At the same time industrial targets are being attacked.
The Arab world reacts in outrage when civilians in Beirut are being bombed. The UN asks for restraint.

The next day Israel issues an ultimatum asking for that the Lebanese government disbands and that new UN controlled elections are being held, after each candidate has been screened as Mossad beliefs the Lebanese government is a victim of terrorist infiltration (even further than the usual Hezbollah compliment of ministers) just like Israel. Israel also asks that UNIFIL leaves the country as it is no longer needed.
Lebanon says that this is absurd and paranoid and that it won’t buckle under unreasonable demands, especially not at gunpoint.
Igmad Mughniyeh, commander of Hezbollah armed wing, says”…that Lebanon needs no lessons in democracy from a Junta.”
The same day Hezbollah supporters fire rockets into Israeli. This is the moment at which IDF troops cross the border.
Ashkenazi says that this time they won’t stop at the Litani river.
A few hours in the offensive a road block set up by UNIFIL is shot at by an IDF Apache, several casualties are being reported. Then Israeli fighters are fired upon by French anti-air weapons. IDF forces make no distinction between Hezbollah, UNIFIL or Lebanese forces.

[FONT=&quot]What now?[/FONT]
 
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