AHC: Nomadic Chinese Tribe

[King Helü of Wu]

For 2300 years the Chinese have lived with the nomadic tribes from the north ( Hsiungnu, Xianbei, Turks, Mongols, and Manchus) and get invaded by them. The invaders sometimes blend in and disappear (leaving a mark in China's culture and memory), or get expelled by indigenous uprisings.

The Chinese do fight back, and sometimes they win. But a key difference between the conquerors from the north and the invaders from the south is that the later never adopt the formers' lifestyle and stay in the lands of the defeated.

The trend of immigration is always from north to south.

How Can We, and What If, we reverse this trend (maybe only temporarily), and have a bunch of Chinese farmers going on horseback and become nomads? (With their identity remain clearly Chinese).

The POD should be no earlier than 771BC.

*They cannot be absorbed by any Mongol or Turkic tribe. Forming alliances with or submitting to a stronger tribe is OK.

Notice that I'm not talking about modern and early modern migration to Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia, the Chinese people who do this generally remain merchants and farmers as they did in their place of origin. (I mean Zhouxikou, for those who know what I'm talking about. )

The closest we can get seems to be semi-nomadic lifestyle in certain regions of north China, like The State of Zhao did.

 

[King Helü of Wu]

And what would be the relationships between the Nomadic China and the old Agrarian China?

 

[KeeCoyote]

It would be like if barb wire was never invented and cowboys merged with the native americans and became nomadic wanders who bring there cattle with them.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Well, if I remember right, there were Chinese who adopted Mongol customs who went up north to Mongolia when the Yuan Dynasty collapsed. I imagine if things went differently, they could think of themselves as Chinese nomads as opposed to Mongols.

How about this: there were some Chinese who adopted Mongol customs who were in China after the Yuan fell. Maybe if they were threatened or forced, they could go north while still thinking of themselves as Chinese. The same way many Manchus adopted Chinese customs without thinking of themselves as Chinese, these Chinese might adopt Mongol customs while still identifying themselves as Chinese.

 

[King Helü of Wu]

It would be like if barb wire was never invented and cowboys merged with the native americans and became nomadic wanders who bring there cattle with them.

Barb wires? Fences should be enough to keep the cowboys and their cows sedentary...

Anyway, people can always be sedentary if the want, I'm talking about a bunch of Chinese who want to be nomadic.

 

[King Helü of Wu]

there were Chinese who adopted Mongol customs who went up north to Mongolia when the Yuan Dynasty collapsed.

Where did you read about this...? Any books or articles on it?

How about this: there were some Chinese who adopted Mongol customs who were in China after the Yuan fell. Maybe if they were threatened or forced, they could go north while still thinking of themselves as Chinese.

Thank you. I never thought of this.

I think size matters. The group have to be large enough to stay independent and consider themselves Chinese, otherwise they are just going to join the Mongols and forget about their Chinese origin starting from the second generation onwards.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Where did you read about this...? Any books or articles on it?

Alright, I might have been sightly mistaken. I may have conflated the events mentioned here (http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Yuan/yuan-event.html), where it mentioned Chinese loyalists at Dadu, with an evacuation of Chinese to Mongolia. But then again, Dadu counts a bit like Mongolia. Maybe stretch it further where the Chinese soldiers at Dadu decide to go north. A bit more research suggests that the Chinese officials at Dadu actually defected to the Ming instead. So perhaps this isn't a feasible strategy.

Koko Temur was one guy I was thinking of, but I don't know for certain if he was fully Chinese. There were other Chinese generals who fought for the Yuan until remarkably late. But I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't go north permanently, given the fact they were fighting from cities.

Thank you. I never thought of this.

I think size matters. The group have to be large enough to stay independent and consider themselves Chinese, otherwise they are just going to join the Mongols and forget about their Chinese origin starting from the second generation onwards.

Also true. But I should point out that I've heard accounts of the opposite (Mongols in China) persisting for a long time. Apparently there's a Mongol community in Henan that has abandoned the Mongolian language and has spoken Mandarin for over 500 years but still considers itself Mongol. And apparently a dialect of Mongolian still survives in Yunnan.

 

[YLi]

A lot of Chinese horse archer units stationed along the northern frontier went native so to speak. This usually prevented the formation of long term cavalry forces that Chinese dynasties could depend on.

However, China has provided a massive Sinicizing influence to its northern neighbors. Even if the Chinese go native and become nomads, the nomads will still want to become Chinese.

 

[RGB]

Qing Green Banners, anyone?

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Maybe later, an alt Hui nation of the north?

 

[Zuvarq]

Not nomadic, and still from north to south, but the early Thais sort of qualify.

 

[DanMcCollum]

Barb wires? Fences should be enough to keep the cowboys and their cows sedentary...

Anyway, people can always be sedentary if the want, I'm talking about a bunch of Chinese who want to be nomadic.

The Great Plains don't usually have an overabundance of trees (except, usually, in river valleys). As such, wood for the construction of fences was hard to come by (wood could be imported from the East, but it was expensive and usually used for shelters). The great thing about barbwire was that it was cheap, easy to manufacture, and a barbwire fence doesn't require a lot of wood, except for support posts.

...

Sorry; I took a class on Great Plains history where we had to read Walter Webb's book, which has an entire bloody chapter dealing with the importance of barbwire. But I digress from the main topic.

hmmmm

Could the nomads have the same relationship to the Chinese that the Scythians had to the Iranians; i.e., cultural and linguistically similar, but a distinct group into themselves?

If so, possibly there are a group of Chinese settlers in the pre-Imperial age, move north and find that they are supplementing their agriculture with herding. Over time, they become fully nomadic and become the dominant culture in the Northeast Asian steppes?

 

[othyrsyde]

It would be like if barb wire was never invented and cowboys merged with the native americans and became nomadic wanders who bring there cattle with them.

This happens in my TL

 

[PhilippeO]

Nien Rebellion survivor (with already have strong cavalry) escape to steppe, and fighting the mongols for pastureland.

 

[Malta]

Well, a possible avenue is a environmental point of divergence. If a area of China is settled by Agrarian Chinese suddenly becomes less agrarian intensive it will have bad socio and economic effects for the Chinese living there. If it makes an agrarian lifestyle unattenable, but a nomadic lifestyle possible some may make the shift.

Though, I think the Tang are a earlier POD as they were very heavily influenced by the Turkics and Nomads.

 

[King Helü of Wu]

Koko Temur was one guy I was thinking of, but I don't know for certain if he was fully Chinese.

I've thought of Koke Temur as well, but he is a half-blood Chinese (with a Naiman mother) adopted and raised by his mongol uncle, I doubt his Chinese blood would count for anything at all.

As for the Chinese loyalists of the Yuan. There is something about Confucian ethics that encourages officials to follow their government until the dead end, even if the government is bad or "barbarian". If you marry a chicken follow the chicken, if you marry a dog follow the dog. I've even read about Vietnamese who remained loyal to the Yuan.

... the opposite (Mongols in China) persisting for a long time. Apparently there's a Mongol community in Henan that has abandoned the Mongolian language and has spoken Mandarin for over 500 years but still considers itself Mongol. And apparently a dialect of Mongolian still survives in Yunnan.

I assume that they survived by submitting to the consecutive Chinese and Manchu Emperors...
It's OK if a group of Chinese do the same in the Asiatic steppe, and can survive and remain independent by submitting to a mongol khan.
But it's more fun to have them thriving in fighting.

 

[King Helü of Wu]

A lot of Chinese horse archer units stationed along the northern frontier went native so to speak. This usually prevented the formation of long term cavalry forces that Chinese dynasties could depend on.

汉人马弓部队“went native”的应该不多吧……生活方式不一样，即使李广利被关在玉门关之外也没有归化为匈奴人啊。

而且历史上汉人大都是离乡背井的戍边卒，不能就地生根，不能在草原经济环境中生存，补给要靠千里馈粮。这才是“prevented the formation of long term cavalry forces”的原因。（李牧应该是例外。）

中原王朝的“long term cavalry forces”一般都是胡人。北魏的六镇，唐朝的“犷骑”、“健儿”，明朝的朵颜三卫等。

However, China has provided a massive Sinicizing influence to its northern neighbors. Even if the Chinese go native and become nomads, the nomads will still want to become Chinese.

游牧民族寇边怎么会是因为他们“want to become Chinese”？不要说打进来的只是要吃你罢了，就是内附的也只是为了讨口饭吃。

 

[King Helü of Wu]

Nien Rebellion survivor (with already have strong cavalry) escape to steppe, and fighting the mongols for pastureland.

Good one.
But I wonder why they didn't do so historically.

 

[King Helü of Wu]

Well, a possible avenue is a environmental point of divergence. If a area of China is settled by Agrarian Chinese suddenly becomes less agrarian intensive it will have bad socio and economic effects for the Chinese living there. If it makes an agrarian lifestyle unattenable, but a nomadic lifestyle possible some may make the shift.

Though, I think the Tang are a earlier POD as they were very heavily influenced by the Turkics and Nomads.

The thing is, a climate that makes Northern China less suitable for farming would simultaneously make the steppe less suitable for pastoralism, and the nomads will go south for pastures and loots. And the most likely consequence is a "barbarian invasion" southward.

This in turn will push the Chinese southward for more farmland, resulting in a continental southward migration wave we've seen so often in history.

However, the climate change resulting in a nomadic China is likely with an earlier POD. I do not know much about Shang, but Zhou was clearly half-nomadic when the were still in Zhouyuan。

 

[YLi]

汉人马弓部队“went native”的应该不多吧……生活方式不一样，即使李广利被关在玉门关之外也没有归化为匈奴人啊。

而且历史上汉人大都是离乡背井的戍边卒，不能就地生根，不能在草原经济环境中生存，补给要靠千里馈粮。这才是“prevented the formation of long term cavalry forces”的原因。（李牧应该是例外。）

中原王朝的“long term cavalry forces”一般都是胡人。北魏的六镇，唐朝的“犷骑”、“健儿”，明朝的朵颜三卫等。


游牧民族寇边怎么会是因为他们“want to become Chinese”？不要说打进来的只是要吃你罢了，就是内附的也只是为了讨口饭吃。

I forgot where I read about Chinese cavalry forces going native or adopting a nomadic lifestyle, but the thing I read suggested Chinese had trouble training a horse archer force that could match the nomads because the skills required were difficult to train for in a sedentary environment.

*blinks, wait a minute, I think I got something wrong*

Although come to think about it, I think I may have simply misinterpreted that as "going native". The Chinese, like most other sedentary cultures, had pretty nice heavy cavalry, which indeed were regular and long term.

My mistake.

As for Sinicization of nomads, there seems to be a long term trend of it, if only as a matter of proximity. You don't hear much about the Wei or the Manchu being a separate people these days, do you? The Manchus and Jurchens before them essentially abandoned the Manchu language on their own for example.

Note: Keep the conversation in English from now on.