AHC: No independent Ireland

[TFSmith121]

The British tried, essentially;

You could deport all the Irish to the colonies in the British empire( maybe New Zealand) and replace them with English settlers.

Ireland had a population of 8 million in 1840; it dropped by half over the next half century.

Best,

 

[sparky42]

Ireland had a population of 8 million in 1840; it dropped by half over the next half century.

Best,

A) I'm pretty sure Belfast is aware of the Famine (tends to come up in history class)

B) that's hardly a planned process, but more a result of the famine without replacing the population, I think Belfast was suggesting something more along the lines of a planned multi-decade process of forced immigration and renewed plantations at the same time

 

[TFSmith121]

Sending 8 million people to Botany Bay seems a little draconian,

A) I'm pretty sure Belfast is aware of the Famine (tends to come up in history class)

B) that's hardly a planned process, but more a result of the famine without replacing the population, I think Belfast was suggesting something more along the lines of a planned multi-decade process of forced immigration and renewed plantations at the same time

Sending 8 million people to Botany Bay seems a little draconian, even for the English in the (presumably) Eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries; they got half that becuase of the famine and voluntary emigration, historically, and they still could not quash Irish nationalism - not certain that trying to drive another four million aboard sailing ships at gunpoint is likely to lead to a peaceful Ireland...

Best,

 

[Vanity 6]

Sending 8 million people to Botany Bay seems a little draconian, even for the English in the (presumably) Eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries; they got half that becuase of the famine and voluntary emigration, historically, and they still could not quash Irish nationalism - not certain that trying to drive another four million aboard sailing ships at gunpoint is likely to lead to a peaceful Ireland...

Best,

Yes. Thank you. Depriving the country of half its population did not prevent an independent Ireland.

 

[BELFAST]

Yes. Thank you. Depriving the country of half its population did not prevent an independent Ireland.

That is why you need to removed 100% of the Irish. If there are no irish in Ireland and they are replaced with English there is no one left to rebel or ask for independence.

 

[Space Oddity]

That is why you need to removed 100% of the Irish. If there are no irish in Ireland and they are replaced with English there is no one left to rebel or ask for independence.

...

...

...

...

Yeah, I think that plan's going to backfire.

 

[BELFAST]

Sending 8 million people to Botany Bay seems a little draconian, even for the English in the (presumably) Eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries; they got half that becuase of the famine and voluntary emigration, historically, and they still could not quash Irish nationalism - not certain that trying to drive another four million aboard sailing ships at gunpoint is likely to lead to a peaceful Ireland...

Best,

I suggested New Zealand not Botany Bay in Australia.

 

[BELFAST]

...

...

...

...

Yeah, I think that plan's going to backfire.

I did not say it was a good idea.
The question was how to stop Ireland becoming independent. The only way I think will work is if the there are no Irish in Ireland.
Highland Clearances were used in Scotland and stopped the rebellions there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

 

[Fabius Maximus]

I did not say it was a good idea.
The question was how to stop Ireland becoming independent. The only way I think will work is if the there are no Irish in Ireland.
Highland Clearances were used in Scotland and stopped the rebellions there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

The Highland Clearances were mostly carried out by local landowners who realised they could make more money by turfing out their tenant farmers and raising sheep instead. Even if they did stop the area rebelling afterwards, that was largely accidental, and the idea that the British government used a policy of depopulation is a myth.

Also, the views some posters here seem to have on the Irish are really bizarre. What, so they're just so genetically predetermined to be fractious and rebellious that the only way to keep them from rebelling is by deporting them all to the other side of the world? Really? For Heaven's sake, Irish nationalism didn't become a big thing until the second half of the 19th century, and even then most Irishmen would probably have been happy with home rule as part of the United Kingdom until the First World War. The fact that Ireland ended up rebelling shouldn't lead us to assume that the rebellion was always inevitable.

 

[sparky42]

Sending 8 million people to Botany Bay seems a little draconian, even for the English in the (presumably) Eighteenth and Nineteenth centuries; they got half that becuase of the famine and voluntary emigration, historically, and they still could not quash Irish nationalism - not certain that trying to drive another four million aboard sailing ships at gunpoint is likely to lead to a peaceful Ireland...

Best,

The Highland Clearances were mostly carried out by local landowners who realised they could make more money by turfing out their tenant farmers and raising sheep instead. Even if they did stop the area rebelling afterwards, that was largely accidental, and the idea that the British government used a policy of depopulation is a myth.

Also, the views some posters here seem to have on the Irish are really bizarre. What, so they're just so genetically predetermined to be fractious and rebellious that the only way to keep them from rebelling is by deporting them all to the other side of the world? Really? For Heaven's sake, Irish nationalism didn't become a big thing until the second half of the 19th century, and even then most Irishmen would probably have been happy with home rule as part of the United Kingdom until the First World War. The fact that Ireland ended up rebelling shouldn't lead us to assume that the rebellion was always inevitable.

Realy so what was the 1798 Rebellion and the British response then? 50K United Irishmen isn't nothing nor is the death toll following it.

 

[Wraithverge]

I will admit that I know precious little on the topic and didn't want to resort to Wikipedia as many are prone to do. I'm looking for ways to keep Ireland in the United Kingdom without them wanting to secede and without requiring bloodshed from either side. How can this happen?

Delay WW1 by one year, or have WW1 not go on into 1918.

If you delay WW1 by one year then Irish home rule is enacted (excepting the six counties of the north, who were "temporarily" exempt). This will satisfy almost everyone except the fringe IRB and ICA.

If the war doesn't continue into 1918 then HMG won't extend conscription to Ireland, and alienate the population. The suspension of the enaction of home rule will expire after the war and all will be well.

 

[Twisted Spur]

How about no reformation? Henry VIII does not need a divorce, or Thomas Cromwell does not reform the church and there is no schism between England and Rome? Remove religious differences from the equation. That might help.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

One of the big turning points for Ireland was the UK's over reaction to the Easter Rising. Most of Ireland was ambivalent about English rule if not accepting by that point. The support that the rebels had expected from the general population if Ireland never materialized. When the UK started arresting everyone even tangentially involved and handing out death sentences the public opinion swung the other way and the rebels went from violent kooks to heros.

If the British had a more measured response in 1916 I think Ireland would very likely have a situation similar to Scotland today. Ireland would still have a separatist movement but it would be in the UK fairly peacefully, not held there at gun point.

 

[TFSmith121]

This one is my favorite:

If the Commonwealth actually became a republic under the Agreement of the People, (which included such radical notions as general male suffrage and religious liberty - in the 1600s) several centuries of ethnic strife rallying around religion presumably could have been avoided...

Liliburne wins out over Cromwell, somehow.

Best,

 

[Shimbo]

One of the big turning points for Ireland was the UK's over reaction to the Easter Rising. Most of Ireland was ambivalent about English rule if not accepting by that point. The support that the rebels had expected from the general population if Ireland never materialized. When the UK started arresting everyone even tangentially involved and handing out death sentences the public opinion swung the other way and the rebels went from violent kooks to heros.

If the British had a more measured response in 1916 I think Ireland would very likely have a situation similar to Scotland today. Ireland would still have a separatist movement but it would be in the UK fairly peacefully, not held there at gun point.

Though it would have helped, I think that would be tough to avoid executions.

It was the middle of a desperate war that Britain wasn't winning, Dublin was under martial law, in British eyes the rebels were guilty of high treason and they were panicking about further attacks.

Though 90 were sentenced to death, only 15 people were actually executed, as the politicians took back control from the military as soon as they realised the effect the executions were having.

Interestingly, a lot more British than Irish were killed in the uprising (132 vs 80). More civillains were killed than combatants of either side (254).

Perhaps if someone a bit calmer than General Maxwell had been given the task of 'restoring order' there might have been a more 'judicial' process and fewer executions, but I can't see the main instigators surviving.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

Though it would have helped, I think that would be tough to avoid executions.

Perhaps if someone a bit calmer than General Maxwell had been given the task of 'restoring order' there might have been a more 'judicial' process and fewer executions, but I can't see the main instigators surviving.

I agree that the death sentence was likely for the leaders but had the rebels been treated as criminals rather than "traitors" from the start I think a lot of the situation would have been calmed down. The problem is that Britain tried to control the situation in the manner of an occupying army rather than as a criminal/judicial situation where the army was needed to lend a hand. By acting the way that they did and rounding up so many uninvolved people the army basically proved to many previously uninterested people the rebels' point about the ills of British rule.

In a tense situation, instead of showing the even handedness of British justice they basically declared that the Irish weren't to be trusted and handed out death sentences very publicly. They made martyrs of men no one had cared about and gave a huge boost to the cause of Irish nationalism. Even though they tried to reverse course later the damage had been done.

 

[British Republic]

Here are some suggesting that might work

England and Scotlands state church remaining Catholic

Ireland given Home Rule before WW1

Better management of the Easter Rising

Seperate Ireland into 2 home Nations (County Antrim + County Armagh into one Home Nation without Home Rule, the rest of Ireland into another with Home Rule)

 

[BELFAST]

Here are some suggesting that might work

England and Scotlands state church remaining Catholic

Ireland given Home Rule before WW1

Better management of the Easter Rising

Seperate Ireland into 2 home Nations (County Antrim + County Armagh into one Home Nation without Home Rule, the rest of Ireland into another with Home Rule)

Even if the British were Catholic the Irish still would have wanted to be independent.
I cannot think of any reason in the long term by the Irish would want to remain in the UK.
Why would the Irish want to remain in the union?
There is a very long and sad history between Ireland and England.
The English stole the best land, collapse the legal and social system in Ireland committed genocide, forced the Irish to stop speaking their own language,made education for the majority of the population illegal.
That kind of long term abuse is why there were so many rebellions in Ireland.

 

[NthBelisarius]

Belfast, I don't mean to be rude (and if I come across as rude I apologise), but what is the point of being a member of an alternate history board if you refuse to consider the possible repercussions of different actions being taken throughout history? Yes the English/British did treat the Irish horribly, but perhaps in another TL they might treat them better and the Irish might come to accept being a part of the UK. As has been said, the Irish are not genetically predisposed to hating and rebelling against the English. That's not to say there won't be difficulties of course, but it is not utterly certain to fail either.

I think if the Famine had been handled properly it would have been a good start. Home Rule would also be a benefit too, if only because that means the Irish can blame their own elected politicians for mistakes and such. Also, get rid of the goddam Ascendancy.

 

[BELFAST]

Belfast, I don't mean to be rude (and if I come across as rude I apologise), but what is the point of being a member of an alternate history board if you refuse to consider the possible repercussions of different actions being taken throughout history? Yes the English/British did treat the Irish horribly, but perhaps in another TL they might treat them better and the Irish might come to accept being a part of the UK. As has been said, the Irish are not genetically predisposed to hating and rebelling against the English. That's not to say there won't be difficulties of course, but it is not utterly certain to fail either.

I think if the Famine had been handled properly it would have been a good start. Home Rule would also be a benefit too, if only because that means the Irish can blame their own elected politicians for mistakes and such. Also, get rid of the goddam Ascendancy.

No I do not think you are being rude.
I am not opposed to different out comes. The idea of the Irish be happy to be part of the UK is ASB to me.
The problems the Irish had with England go back long before the famine of the 1840s.
The events that leading up to the famine would need to be dealt with rather than rather than handling the famine better.
The ownership of land and the corn laws were a major contributing factors in causing the famine of the 1840s.
The Irish do not hate the English. The problem was the English invading Ireland and trying to make them part of their empire.