AHC: Nice Guy Nazis

I was very unclear with my original challenge.

What I meant was something more along these lines: you don't have to have Nazism as it actually existed be a mainstream ideology within the democracies, but you have to have the public's perception of Nazism be positive.

Like, Neo-Confederates usually don't care much for slavery and disagree with Confederate ideology, but they don't care because they reinterpret the history of the Confederacy to focus on the things that do matter them. I'm kind of picturing a scenario in which you have something like the modern Alt-Right's opinion on the Nazis, but mainstreamed. Where they ignore or downplay things like lebensraum and racial supremacism but emphasize social conservatism and anti-communism.

Another way to put it would be, "How do you get a world in which Nazi Germany not only has a Lost Cause-like strain of pop revisionism, but it's also considered socially acceptable to support it?"
 
Oh look. Lots of posts hinting at some form of moral equivalence between the Nazi policies and other policies.
What a coincidence.
 
I know that assuming bad faith is bad form on a forum like this, but I feel compelled to speak up. If it was a typical user that started this discussion then I wouldn't mind quite as much, but when the user is a self-described "Nationalist" of an area who's only flirtation with nationalism came during a war motivated in very large part by racism, it really sets off an alarm buzzer in my head. To me, it comes across like they're using this thread as wish fulfilment, especially when they're rewording their original challenge because we're not making the modern U.S. explicitly pro-Nazi enough.

I hope I'm wrong, and if the mods want to kick me for a while for "making false accusations" or whatever, fine, but it bugged me when I saw this thread yesterday and OP's most recent post only reinforces that instinct.
 

Loghain

Banned
And now this seems like Witch hunting, I know Current situation is Bad, But with this logic we can just Delete stuff such
as Calbear Anglo-American - Nazi War because it has nazi in control of Europe.

I would also like to remind posters Mod was here and the Thread is still here.
Furthermore it seems some people here seem to think that any Alternate history that has nazis doing better than in the OTL is somehow nazi symphatetic.

it Might be wise to lock thread before those posters cause shitstorm throught, but that is just my opinion.
 
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And now this seems like Witch hunting, I know Current situation is Bad, But with this logic we can just Delete stuff such
as Calbear Anglo-American - Nazi War because it has nazi in control of Europe.

I would also like to remind posters Mod was here and the Thread is still here.
Furthermore it seems some people here seem to think that any Alternate history that has nazis doing better than in the OTL is somehow nazi symphatetic.

it Might be wise to lock thread before those posters cause shitstorm throught, but that is just my opinion.

It's a combination of the name and the content that bugs me. The name "CalBear" is probably a reference to a university football team. There's nothing about the context of his posts to hint that that he's actually sympathetic to the Nazis. A-ANW is about the Allies' fight against Nazism. But when we have a user joining the forum in an era where white nationalism is poking its head out again, calling himself a nationalist of a predominantly white area with a strong history of racism, and asking us to turn the U.S. into a nation of Nazi sympathisers (a plot point that would have never happened in A-ANW), it raises some red flags.

Like I said before, I hope I'm wrong, and I welcome Appalachian Nationalist to come and clear things up if I am.
 
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Loghain

Banned
It's a combination of the name and the content that bugs me. The name "CalBear" is probably a reference to a university football team. There's nothing about the context of his posts to hint that that he's actually sympathetic to the Nazis. A-ANW is about the Allies' fight against Nazism. When we have a user joining the forum in an era where white nationalism is poking its head out again, calling himself a nationalist of a predominantly white area with a strong history of racism, and asking us to turn the U.S. into a nation of Nazi sympathisers (a plot point that would have never happened in A-ANW) it raises some red flags.

Like I said before, I hope I'm wrong, and I welcome Appalachian Nationalist to come and clear things up if I am.

Calm down Let Mods handle it and dont usurp their Responsibilities got it ? This reallly seems like "Burn the Witch".
 
Calm down Let Mods handle it and dont usurp their Responsibilities got it ? This reallly seems like "Burn the Witch".

You're really accusing me of usurping mod responsibilities while acting like a mod by telling me how to behave?

If I really wanted to go witch-hunting, I'd be accusing you of Nazi sympathies because you're opposing my points. I'm not doing that. I'm simply saying that I feel there is an elephant in the room that needs to be addressed if A.N. is going to become a regular contributor to the forum.
 

Loghain

Banned
You're really accusing me of usurping mod responsibilities while acting like a mod by telling me how to behave?

If I really wanted to go witch-hunting, I'd be accusing you of Nazi sympathies because you're opposing my points. I'm not doing that. I'm simply saying that I feel there is an elephant in the room that needs to be addressed if A.N. is going to become a regular contributor to the forum.

You dont have to wield pitchfork to come off as witch hunting. furthermore now you added gatekeeping to the list.
Do you have any proof Why he shouldnt be part of this community ?

We are getting offtopic, you know, either stay on topic or leave, By all means if you feel there is elephant in the room why dont you call the mods ?
 
(Comedian) Chuck Nice becomes a Nazi. There, you have a "Nice" Nazi. Granted, he's black, but, hey, I got you there.

That's the best I can do on the painkillers.....:p
 
You dont have to wield pitchfork to come off as witch hunting. furthermore now you added gatekeeping to the list.
Do you have any proof Why he shouldnt be part of this community ?
Because I believe there is a strong possibility that he is using this forum to express and encourage racist views.

We are getting offtopic, you know, either stay on topic or leave
Again, this is coming from the person who accused me of usurping the mods?

By all means if you feel there is elephant in the room why dont you call the mods ?
Done. Though they're probably in the U.S. which means they're likely still asleep at the moment.
 

Loghain

Banned
Because I believe there is a strong possibility that he is using this forum to express and encourage racist views.


Again, this is coming from the person who accused me of usurping the mods?


Done. Though they're probably in the U.S. which means they're likely still asleep at the moment.

I give it up you are simply trying to make yourself look good and me badly for when mods come dont you ?
 
Because I believe there is a strong possibility that he is using this forum to express and encourage racist views.


Again, this is coming from the person who accused me of usurping the mods?


Done. Though they're probably in the U.S. which means they're likely still asleep at the moment.
I give it up you are simply trying to make yourself look good and me badly for when mods come dont you ?
Chill off, you two. The Mods will deal with what the mods deal with, and whether they find AppNat guilty or innocent will be decided by them. No need to worry, they tend to avoid civilian casualties... tend to...

Yes, the premise of OP has some... politically problematic ideologies attached to it. No, that does not make them a nazi, or a sympathizer to such, unless/until the mods determine such. In the meantime, feel free to attack me or something for mod usurpation... Whoops.
 
I was very unclear with my original challenge.

What I meant was something more along these lines: you don't have to have Nazism as it actually existed be a mainstream ideology within the democracies, but you have to have the public's perception of Nazism be positive.

Like, Neo-Confederates usually don't care much for slavery and disagree with Confederate ideology, but they don't care because they reinterpret the history of the Confederacy to focus on the things that do matter them. I'm kind of picturing a scenario in which you have something like the modern Alt-Right's opinion on the Nazis, but mainstreamed. Where they ignore or downplay things like lebensraum and racial supremacism but emphasize social conservatism and anti-communism.

Another way to put it would be, "How do you get a world in which Nazi Germany not only has a Lost Cause-like strain of pop revisionism, but it's also considered socially acceptable to support it?"
If that's the case, you need an ATL similar to my original guess, Nazism gets out of the Depression and unites Germany, and then a coup takes them out. German remains today a first world, but military-led country. People would remember Nazism as a democratic movement which united Germany and brought them pride after the Great War, and they would "forget" about all the nutty things written in Mein Kampf.
 
OP wants Nazism to be considered acceptable. That is not the same thing as reforming Nazis, but it's but one way to make them considered non evil. There are other options:

Have Nazis not be utterly destroyed after losing war (win it, or not start it), and Nazism will not be universally loathed.
Because if they don't start war, they don't make that many relevant enemies, and if they win war, they'll no longer have enemies.
 
Have Nazi Germany crushed early (1936±2) by the Soviets in what's clearly a defensive war.

I'm afraid this requires a pre-1933 POD, though, as you'd probably need someone else than Stalin in power. Most of the changes would be confined to the Soviet side, no need to make the Nazis much different from OTL (though a harsher Versailles treaty would help).
 
You'd have to have Naziism remembered as something that isn't Naziism, simply due to how it was by nature. That, or a crapsack world.
 
Four suggestions.

1. They win. Everyone loves a winner.

2. They are needed to fighting something even worse, like space aliens. Wasn't there a science fiction series about this? Because they were needed to defeat the Nazis, the reputation of the USSR is not as bad as it could have been.

3. Something really messy on the lines suggested here that involves taking Hitler and Himmler out of the picture sometime between Munich and Operation Typhoon. The new photo-Nazi regime is able to arrange a compromise peace that leaves Germany as a dictatorship that officially is Nazi, but the genocide plans are quietly shelved. Germany's reputation winds up somewhere along the lines of port-Mao China.

4. Wait thirty years. The Americans go nuts the same way the Axis powers did in the 1930s and 1940s, and because 21st century USA is much more powerful, gets a lot more people killed and does much more environmental damage. Remember the USA has plenty of nukes, which Hitler didn't. Bonus points if Israel is fully along for the ride. People start thinking that maybe it would have been better if that Hitler guy had won after all.

I think you only get the Nazis as good guys if #1 happens. Remember that the extermination camps would have been covered up, as in the novel "Fatherland", they pretty much were at the time. The USSR would have been demonized much worse than it is now, and the faults of the declining imperial UK would have been magnified too. Hitler would be viewed as the greatest conqueror in history, but also the founder of the main system of government in the world.

Consider a scenario where the USA goes fascist in the 1930s, which is a feature of alternative history scenarios that take out FDR, and joins the Axis! You get a war where Germany and the United States, along with nationalist China and probably Italy, are lined up against the USSR, UK, and Japan. The Axis would probably win that war, and Hitler's reputation in the USA would probably be about the same as Winston Churchill's is ITTL.
 
Four suggestions.

1. They win. Everyone loves a winner.

Sure. Look at everybody's fond memories of Franco and Ho Chi Minh. Or think of all the Mao Zedong Squares in the world. And McCarthy's US parliamentary committee to celebrate the victories of Stalin.



...
Hitler ... the founder of the main system of government in the world.
...
Consider a scenario where the USA goes fascist in the 1930s,
...

Doesn't hold water. Doesn't satisfy the requirement. You'll remember, the Nazis have to be liked by the Western democracies. Since Fascism is the main form of government and the USA are fascist too, you have done away with the subject of the love, i.e. the democracies.

Sure, fascism loves fascism. That goes without saying. But it isn't what was required.
 
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